Did you know that Washington has a state Office of Equity?

It's one of the results of legislative action in 2020 and a commitment by thousands of stakeholders to make Washington a place where everybody can thrive.

That's very easy to say and get behind, but it's something else entirely to actually do, measure and implement.

That's the challenge for Megan Mathews, the director of the Office of Equity here tonight on Northwest.

Now.

Washington was the first state to establish an Office of Equity.

In a video describing the purpose of the office, Jay Inslee, in language that so much like him, simply says that, quote, Washington needs to be a place where everybody has a shot.

Who can argue with that?

But of course, after the big vision politics, radical thought for both the left and the right and the universal quest for money and power always complicate what sounds like a simple issue.

So here we are living in an America deeply divided about just exactly what equity should mean.

When Governor Inslee removed long time activist Dr. Karen Johnson as the first director of the Office of Equity last spring, Megan MATTHEWS was named as the interim director.

In August of 2023, though MATTHEWS was named the full time director and has served in that role ever since.

MATTHEWS has a master's in public administration from the Evergreen State College.

Meghan, thanks so much for coming to Northwest now.

Great to have a discussion about the State Department, the Office of Equity.

We're the first in the country to have such a thing.

Is your sense when you go out to the public, do people say, yeah, I know all about your department, Like, now wait a minute, we got what what's your what do people say Matter The latter.

I'm really excited because this year we've been focused on doing a lot of hiring so that we could build our capacity to do the body of work and really connect with people in a way that's intentional, but also make change.

And so one of the things we're excited for is a communication strategy to get out there and let people know about us.

Yeah, I we're in Tacoma, obviously, and we broadcast to all of western Washington, but I do want a little bit of bio and also to talk about where you're from because that's very important.

Yes.

Yes.

Well, so I am from Washington state, long term Washington resident.

I'm born in Tacoma.

I went to Stanley Elementary School, which is just a few blocks away from where we are right now.

And I graduated from Lincoln High School.

So I'm from here and I'm excited to be in this role in this opportunity.

I've been a state employee for 15 years now, so not only am I from the community, but I also have a lot of experience in state agency work and really understanding some of the the great folks who are there and also some of the barriers that we need to remove to really create more fairness and opportunities for Washington.

Talk a little bit about the office itself.

Now you're in Olympia.

How many folks work in that office?

How big are you and what is your span of control?

Do you just look at state agencies or do you also look at contractors?

What's your scope?

Your scope of practice, I guess.

Yeah.

So that's a good question.

Right now we have 25 people in our office.

We have capacity for 36, so we have been doing a ton of hiring and I am hoping that by the end of January, end of January we'll have 35 and we'll just hire our last roll.

Our legislative director after legislative session completes in 2024.

Our mandate is to advance systems change so policy and systems change for Washington to make sure that all people in Washington have access to the opportunities, the power and the resources they need to live their life in the way that they choose.

And it's a huge mission.

And what what I believe is that it's going to take all of us.

And so it's not just about state agencies, although it's a huge it's a huge factor.

State agencies are because we have we hold the policies, the processes that really impact people's lives and create barriers for some and access for others.

So we will be working with state agencies mostly, but also want to work out across sectors.

We want to work with nonprofit, private.

I want to work with the legislative branch, judicial branch.

I want to work with community organizations, local government as well, to really be able to amplify the work that is going on.

Well, it's well, the ideas, so we don't have to recreate it ourselves and also create tailored approaches for different communities.

So each community has what they need to be successful.

So to be fair to say that you're doing the equity piece as a as a policy director or as a in a policy function for state agencies and then more of an educational outreach.

And hey, here are some things best practices for folks outside of that area of control, other governments, contractors, nonprofits.

Yeah, I would say policy and accountability for state agencies because we want to be transparent.

We want to be able to have real change.

It's not just about, you know, flashy, you know, notifications and and an awareness things.

It's really about creating real change.

And to do that, we have to have accountability and transparency.

So folks in our community know what's happening.

So bring them and track the progress, right.

And then bring community members together because community members are the ones who hold all the solutions.

So we really need to work with the people locally who are doing the work so that we can really tailor the approaches and the solutions for them.

I always forget this and leave it to the end, but I want to make sure I don't this time.

We're going to put it right up here, up front.

Where do people learn more about your office if they want to understand what programs you're involved in, what your outreach is, who the folks are, how do they go about doing that?

Yes.

So our website is w w w dot equity, dot dot gov.

And we are relaunching our website next month.

So stay tuned.

It's going to be beautiful.

And then you can also email us at info inf0 at equity dot dot dot gov.

Okay.

Now here comes the hard stuff.

And I don't intended to be hard.

I just want to give you a chance to speak about some of the things that I know you're hearing all the time at a party or to get together from other people say, Now wait a minute, what about.

So let's start with the equity.

There's equity of opportunity and equity of outcomes, and that's been very controversial.

A lot of people will get behind the idea.

Everybody should have a shot.

In fact, that's what Jay Inslee says.

Everybody should have a shot.

I don't think anybody would argument again, argue against that.

It's ensuring the equity of outcomes that gets a little questionable because, you know, the nail that sticks up too far will be pounded down.

That's what a lot of folks are worried about.

Talk about that subtle difference between opportunities and outcomes and how the office approaches it.

I think we look at the outcomes to understand where the barriers are, so the outcomes tell us.

So, you know, I think if we look at most people, we are similar, we want similar things out of our life.

We want to maybe own a home or rent or be able to travel.

We want to have kids or not have kids.

We want to be able to earn a living wage.

We want to be able to have a good health care, a good education, access to these different things.

If we're looking at if we understand that we all have similar interests or we both have similar wants in our lives, and then the outcomes should should be reflective of the demographics in our community, If everything is fair right now, what happens is the outcomes show us that there are things that aren't fair for different communities in our in our and our great state of Washington.

And so we look at that to understand where are our policies, practices and processes, creating burdens differently for people, and then how do we need to tailor solutions so that we remove those barriers so that then people can have the lives that they want because this is us.

So the solutions come on, still on the opportunity piece as opposed to a solution on the outcome piece, where the outcome is now.

Now you don't have to take the test now.

You don't have to learn the mature or, you know, whatever people are talking about.

You know, you've heard a lot of pushback against this outcomes piece.

So looking at outcomes is a measurement tool or a way to observe what is going on, where opportunity isn't right, equitable, right, right.

And sometimes it may be where you think about access and accessibility.

So if you if we both had a piece of paper to do a test, if I, if I could not see, I couldn't do the test.

I need a different a different way to take the test.

So I could still be successful.

But it's, it's not giving you the answers and saying, okay, you passed exactly.

Exactly.

And so if we look at it that way where it's like, what do we both need?

I have the intelligence, I have the ability to take the test.

I just can't take it because of a barrier that we have introduced into the process.

And so it's really working with people who are in different communities and they can say, well, and, you know, we're hearing from eastern Washington, which I know Eastern Washington, we feel like you all leave us behind.

You don't talk about us right.

The distance to get to jobs, to get to hospitals is too far.

That's a barrier, Right.

So where are the barriers All throughout Washington state that we need to remove, which affects outcomes?

Which affects outcomes, Yes.

Yeah.

One of the things that really kind of helped me understand equity was a cartoon, and I'm sure you've seen it where three kids are trying to watch a baseball game.

The status quo is the little guy can't see the middle guy can't see, only the tall guy can see.

Equality is they each get a box to stand on, an equal box.

But the one kid still can't see equity is everybody gets a box according to their need to see the ball game, which looks good on the surface to me.

I was like, okay, I see what equity is now.

Everybody can see the ball game.

Yeah, I think the only question is, is if the guy on the right, the taller guy, ever decided he wanted to go a little higher is that okay or does he need to be pounded down?

Does the oppressor is he an oppressor who needs to be pounded down or can he still strive for more and achieve more?

Yeah, the the goal of equity and this is why it's so hard, right?

Like what?

How do we talk about how do we.

Yes, because you can't there is no visualization, Tim, to make it to really express the point that people are afraid and people are afraid.

Right.

But even looking past equity get to justice where that sense is not there, Right.

Where those barriers are completely removed.

Right.

So that's even looking at it further.

We won't get there yet.

But but, you know, this is really about people are prevented from having opportunities.

That's all it is.

Once people have access, real access to the same opportunities or to opportunities that they want for themselves, you the sky's the limit.

Yeah, we have to mean taking opportunities away from somebody else.

Right?

Right.

Because I always feel that's one of the real traps people get into too, is the seesaw game.

Well, for you to go up, somebody else has got to go down.

The oppressor has got to be smashed.

Yes.

Is there anything in your you know, you talk about oppression and some of those things.

There are some some buzzwords on the website, I will say.

But is the intent to smash the oppressor or is the intent to have both sides go up on the seesaw as opposed to having one side get pushed out?

Yeah, you know, we live in one of the most one of the wealthiest states in the nation.

There's enough for us all.

There's enough for us all.

And so we don't want to get caught up in in order for you to win, I have to lose.

This isn't a sports game, right?

This is something where we're talking about we all live one of the office equity values is equal to I am because we are.

Our destinies are linked together.

Our lives are linked together.

We think about the outcomes in our community, are in our communities.

Right?

When you have an increased poverty, crime goes up.

When you have access to like no access to resources, jobs, education, right?

The outcomes in your communities go down and that impacts us all.

And so really looking at it holistically, moving a little bit away from me, me, me only and realizing that what happens to you affects me as well, and understanding that there's enough resources in Washington State for us all to have the lives that we want to have, but we don't have to have it where we've got people sleeping on our streets.

We should like in one of the wealthiest needs in the states, in the country, we shouldn't have people sleeping on our streets and it impacts us all.

So for me, it's really about changing that idea from it's not about you win or I win.

It's about we all win, right?

And so how do we come together to do the things that oppressor class in a victim class?

And I don't like to use that pitting them together right.

You know, the divide and conquer, right?

That's how we stay in the situation where we have a few people who are winning.

But the most most of us are struggling.

I think most people in Washington, if you talk to people or when I've been talking to people, they don't feel like they're winning, they are hurting, they are struggling, living paycheck to paycheck, or they have one paycheck bank, but one emergency and it's over.

Right.

They don't know if they're going to be able to have housing for the rest of the year.

These are the things that we need to talk about when we have conversations about, you know, you versus me.

We all lose.

That is a perfect segue way into another very important concept, I think, which is I think a lot of people really look at equity and it's all about race.

I think people of racial, different racial backgrounds who are in the same basic economic class have a heck of a lot more in common than they do with the billionaire class or the 5%.

I really see it as a class thing as opposed to a race thing.

And in the governor's equity summit, there was that question.

There was a video made of that big equity summit.

Why start with race?

But I think that's a good question.

Why start with race?

Because that's the first thing all of our minds go to as opposed to, you know, Martin Luther King's whole campaign was the Poor People's Campaign.

It was about class.

That's how it started.

The civil rights movement had to be expressed in race, but it was really about the haves and the have nots, which is what you discussed there for a minute.

Why start with race?

And we need to keep the class piece in mind to both.

I think so much about the conversation really wants to have you have it be binary?

Yeah, have it be this or that.

And really it's the whole thing.

The reality is that our our country was founded on racism where you have, you know, indigenous folks, native folks who were having land stolen and black people were two thirds of a person in our Constitution.

Right.

And so the reality is that race is a foundation of oppression in this country.

And by addressing, you'll uplift us all.

You know, we also have data that shows if we only look at economics, it doesn't address the racial disparities.

So you have to look at both and looking at race.

We're not not to the exclusion of everything else.

Right.

Because if you look at any any group of race or any racial group, it's not a monolith.

No.

You the folks in there with disabilities, folks in there with different genders, sexual orientation religions.

Right.

So it's really about looking at the root cause, Right.

To have to develop the solutions that really produce the outcomes that we all want.

And so when we talk about race, it's not to the exclusion of everything else, it's just acknowledging that that race is the foundation of oppression in our country.

You look back in the slavery, I don't know if I'm rambling, but look back at slavery and thinking about how you did have indentured servants working right along with with slaves and indigenous servants, many of them white wasn't a thing.

Right?

Right.

Wasn't a thing.

And it really became these folks coming together saying, we're not going to take the treatment that we're that we're under right now.

And and then this tool for me about divide and conquer, we have to separate you.

So you see each other as enemies so you don't work together so that we can keep the system operating the way it is.

And that's what we have to get past to understand that we can look at the ways that our country has embedded racism in this country and but still be focused on uplifting all Washingtonians, which we are.

So a poor white kid in Tacoma isn't necessarily going to be left behind in your vision of equity in what your office is.

Mission Yeah, we use a lot of one of the one of the tools that I like to use is targeted universalism.

So if you visited John Powell, he's the director of the Othering and Belonging Institute in California, and he talks about a targeted universalism.

And I invite anyone who's listening to Google that.

And it's a very beautiful video.

It talks about we want to tailor approaches to what each specific community needs so we can raise the bench for everybody and everybody gets what they need.

And so that's what it is, is what are the different in Washington?

We've got beautiful, beautiful diversity in Tacoma, beautiful diversity to come on where we are right now.

What does what do different groups of folks in Tacoma need so that they are operating in a place or have access to the same opportunities that everybody else does?

And then we target the resources differently, but so that everybody's been raised up.

It's interesting.

I really appreciate your discussion about some of those issues, but it's interesting you're trying to do this work and and what is happening right now in the country.

Lots of pushback now all of a sudden from DIY and equity initiatives, some court cases that have gone against some folks who do support things like some quotas.

There's a court case that's coming up before the Supreme Court right now.

I can't say it's in Saint Louis affecting Title seven.

That could have a major impact on the impacts of D-I and allow lawsuits to be done by folks who believe they've been discriminated against as a result of it.

How do you navigate that changing legal landscape and social landscape with all the pushback probably less in Washington than if you were doing this in Missouri?

Not I'm not raining on people in Missouri, but so it's a little different here.

But still, you're aware of that environment.

You do get the pushback.

You are aware of the of the of the legal framework that's changing possibly a little bit right now.

How are you navigating that?

What are your thoughts about that?

I know that's a big question.

It is.

It's, you know, being from someone who is from Tacoma, someone who came up with not a lot of resources, someone who has had access to opportunities.

We need this moment.

People in Washington, people in the country need this moment.

There are so many people struggling.

And so for me, it's we're not going to stop the work.

We just have to be smart and we have to be telling our own story.

So government is not great about telling our story.

And so, folks, there's a lot of fear right nationally here about fear.

the changing demographics.

What does that mean?

no, I'm not going to be left behind.

Zero sum, right?

You and I lose.

Yeah.

White people are afraid, right?

And so for me, it's really saying we mean you to this.

When we mean all people, we mean all people.

And and being intentional about our narrative, telling our story, we're going to launch a communication strategy next year so that folks can be directed directly connected to us in a language that they can understand.

So we're not going to be using all these big words government.

We like to talk in ways that nobody understands how time I don't understand.

And so we're going to be using words that connect with people I think understand this means us so that they have a framework that we have.

They have an understanding that is in direct opposition to what's going on nationally that seeks to divide us.

Talk a little bit about DTI.

The DTI that I've been exposed to.

That training is pretty the bottom line.

The message is don't be a jerk.

You know, it seems very self-evident to me.

I haven't seen anything that really says, Hey, these are the oppressors, you're a bad guy or anything like that.

In my experience, other folks report having that experience and there's some research that shows out there that is actually proven to be divisive in a lot of institutions and organizations.

What's your take on that?

Is is DTI important or is it only important if it's done right?

How do you how do you view that?

And what are your thoughts about some of those discussions that are are coming out of that research that shows, you know, some folks it's actually dividing people.

People want to eat lunch together anymore.

They're doing this.

Yeah, I think we need to part of the our philosophy is about love, dignity, humanity, connection.

And so a lot of it is built on having relationships.

And so sometimes we go into these spaces, I think, to build a relationship with people first, because then you can have the conversations that we need to have.

Because now you see me as a person who is not trying to dehumanize you or make you feel less than.

And the same thing for me feeling from you.

And I think we need to have more of that kind of approach where we're building connections between people so we can have the conversations about and also move away from these ideas that there's a pie and that I have to have more pie and you get to have less pie.

That's I mean, that's some of the conversation that it's been and also acknowledging, you know, if you've read I would also read Heather Mcghee's book that some of us she has a and she has a TED Talk as well.

It's a beautiful discussion about these beautiful pools that we just have in America.

Beautiful pools, a public pool, every community.

yeah.

Three pools, right.

And, you know, everybody got to come.

They were segregated, so only white people can come.

And when a 1954 Brown board came out and said, you have to no more segregation based on race, they had to integrate these pools and and many communities filled in the pools they converted than the parks that got rid of the pools.

And what you had then were you had these pools, but it cost money.

You had private clubs where pools came in, and that's how people could have access to them.

But who lost out on that poor white people too, if they can't afford these pools, they can't.

It was free before and now it cost money.

So now poor white people lost as well because and with with black people.

So racism harms us all.

And I think that's the message that we want to say, is that it's impacting a lot more people.

Even though we're focusing on race, the goal is an uplift of all because we're all facing these barriers that come from racism.

I use that analogy constantly, the pie analogy when talking about this issue and also socialism versus capitalism.

You know, socialism has got this idea there's that there's a fixed amount of pie and boy, you better get your piece no matter what it takes.

You got to kill these folks to get your piece of pie.

Their my thing is, I hope we grow.

Let's get more pie.

Let's make more pie.

And it's interesting to hear you use that analogy.

With that said, the counterargument to this, you know, a more measured approach is we're never going to get folks, we're never going to get certain populations to buy into this.

It's got to be something that is mandated.

That is I wouldn't say forced upon them.

But, you know, the Civil Rights Act, you know, a lot of folks, when they voted for that, if it would have been up for, you know, of a public vote, same with this.

How do you get that balance right, knowing that everybody's not going to buy in, but trying to get most folks?

How do you how do you view that when you go home at night?

How do you think about that?

Yeah, you know, in our office, we have a multifaceted approach.

So it really takes a lot of things.

It's about connecting with people through our communication and engagement work.

It's about setting accountability measurements because there is that we we do need to show progress, real progress to outcomes, and that accountability is important.

And so in our statute, we are supposed to bring accountability to Washington state government.

And in a lot of the laws that are passing some of the directors from the governor, we are supposed to be providing that accountability to make sure this stuff really moves.

We start moving, and that's a part of it as well.

So I think that there are somebody who's infused for jobs how contracts are.

Let a lot of those things are the measurement pieces of this equity piece.

So, yeah, you know, we're we're developing those right now because it's really it's really complicated.

It's not just to me, it's more than just like, Hey, can we check this box and we check this box does this measure, but how are the measurements moving towards outcomes and impact Are we making and this is one of my messages and we're talking about our office.

Are people better off because of what we did?

Yeah, I think I think that's real clear.

I think that's I think that's a good I think that's a good it's hard.

Yeah.

But, you know, that's really what we're looking on.

So are the measurements that we're going to look at going to get us to are people better off.

And part of that is we have to check with people.

And so I think this idea that everyone that there are people who won't get on board, that's probably true.

Not everyone will go along, but I think most people will.

And then we'll move we'll move along with them and we'll bring the accountability to the kind of move it forward.

Meghan, thanks so much for coming in Northwest now.

Great conversation.

Thank you so much for having me time anytime.

Some conservatives talk about institutions like colleges and governments as being captured by a DIY social justice, anti-racist and identity based philosophy that is anti-American and anti-capitalist.

The bottom line, you need to understand exactly what both sides are really saying and figure out if we're heading someplace dark or if this is all just part of our society.

Only now dealing with a dark past.

The truth, as always, comes not from buying into the extremes on either side of the issue.

I hope this program got you thinking and talking to watch this program again or to share it with others.

Northwest now can be found on the web at kbtc.org and be sure to follow us on Facebook and Twitter at Northwest Now, a streamable podcast of this program is available under the Northwest now tab at kbtc.org and on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

That's going to do it for this edition of Northwest.

Now until next Time, I'm Tom Layson.

Thanks for watching.