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Thank you.

The great resignation has struck again, this time in Congress, and they're dropping like flies.

Tonight, Derek Kilmer joins us to talk about his decision not to run for reelection in Washington.

So big names are stepping down.

One of them, JT Wilcox.

He joins us tonight.

Two of the most respected moderates in their respective legislative bodies are next on northwest.

Now.

You.

Not running for reelection.

And outright resignations were gaining momentum in the 2022 cycle in both Congress and the state legislature.

This year, more than 50 members of Congress are calling it quits, including fifth seed Representative Cathy McMorris Rodgers and sixth District Representative Derek Kilmer.

In this Washington, it's not so much the number, but the names Frank Chope, Andy Billig, Karen Kaiser and JT Wilcox.

Joining us now is second district Republican J.T.

Wilcox from Yelm, who has spent the past 14 years in the state legislature, most of it in caucus leadership roles.

Wilcox is widely respected on both sides of the aisle for his integrity and willing to listen, and efforts to make government work.

J.T.

Wilcox, thanks so much for coming to northwest now.

Great to have a conversation with you about, you know, the end of a great career and I want to start by reading an excerpt from your retirement press release.

If you'll indulge me for a moment.

You say government is full of good people who are capable of doing a good job.

You don't know the names of most of them.

They are dedicated staff lifers who are deeply committed to their nonpartizan approach of informing elected legislators, and they are the many elected Republicans and Democrats who don't get featured in the media, don't hunger for attention, and came to Olympia only to make Washington a better state.

The system right now doesn't give them as much influence as they deserve, but that will change how you know, I'm old enough that, I believe that history runs in cycles.

You know, you're young and you think it's linear, and what's happening today is just going to grow and grow and grow.

No, it comes back.

People are going to get tired of of politicians that, that need the spotlight, that want to perform, and just want a rant.

And, you know, then the people that are the most, I think public spirited, and the most, you know, motivated to accomplish things will be popular again.

But you know what?

From your lips to God's ears.

Yeah, yeah, but the thing is, it won't matter to those people.

They will just get more influence.

In your interview with Linda mapes in the Seattle Times, you said, quote, you only have extremists on both sides because people want don't want to go to a few unpleasant meetings a year.

I wish it was that simple.

Is it just down to a few unpleasant meetings a year?

Is it more than that?

Well, I was really talking about what's going on with the parties and, you know, the parties are really left.

And I don't mean to to say that everybody involved in a party is, is like this because there's some great people that work hard inside, Republican and Democrat structures.

but, a lot of the, the folks that used to keep politics on the rails have decided these meetings are so unpleasant.

I'm not going to be a PC, so I'm not going to be, a county chair.

I'm just going to take care of my family, and I'm going to drop out of politics.

And, you know, that used to be a part of being a citizen.

it's it's not anymore.

And so what we're left, I think, is the loudest people and the people that value ranting, over accomplishment.

Want to talk a little bit?

Two.

But one party rule and redistricting.

The GOP incumbents in five districts got redrawn.

How does that process eventually end?

if the GOP can't circle the wagons and become more of a of a force in this state?

Well, that wasn't because the GOP couldn't circle the wagons.

we had an agreement based on something that the voters passed a constitutional amendment that creates, a redistricting commission.

And those people ended up agreeing, I, I'm shocked by this result.

As a matter of fact, there were some options that were offered.

The judge picked the option that was the most disruptive and the most ironic, because it all started with the idea that we have to have, a greater voice for Hispanic voters.

And what happened?

The district that was in question became less Hispanic, and the only Hispanic woman in the Senate Republican caucus was displaced in that process.

So this is, to me, one of the biggest head scratchers I've been told that the judge was not seen as as someone who was purely partizan, but the impact is, egregious.

And it actually affected some of the good people that I talked about earlier.

You received threats, after stating that Lauren Culp lost the 2020 gubernatorial election by stating that simple fact, you received a lot of hate mail threats because of it.

Does Dave Reichert do you think stand a chance to bring some moderation back into the party if he runs a tight race?

And, do you feel that if that happens, the GOP can become relative again?

And in Washington state?

Oh, yeah, I do, in in part because Dave's a great example.

I think, the odds are very high that he's going to come through the top two primary as the Republican nominee.

people in western Washington, in the Puget Sound area are used to him.

they know that he's conservative, but they know that he's honest and fair.

and, you know, there's another thing that makes me feel like, again, we're not on a, you know, a linear track that says we're going to go from 55% Democrat, 85% Democrat.

but it is kind of sick, like, 8 or 10 years ago, Washington was almost an evenly divided state.

We had, Republican majority in the Senate.

We had a 50 to 48 near tie in the House.

And, what happened starting in 2018, I think is, Republicans started getting wiped out in off year elections.

And polling really explains why not.

Not because he's perfect when it comes to horse races.

But what really changed is Washington used to have a fairly large bloc of independent voters, but they leaned Republican.

And so we could we could get a lot of Republican voters, and then we would win a majority of independent voters.

during that, I think it was the 2018 election that block started identifying as Democrat, and they started voting, far more reliably as Democrat.

There's been quite a bit of polling recently that shows not that Republican.

There's more people identifying as Republicans, but there are more people identifying as independent.

And that's that's really the long term, identification of Washington.

And so this isn't like a revolutionary change.

I'm not saying that all of a sudden Republicans are going to be overwhelming, willingly popular.

I'm saying that Washington is reverting to the identity that it had.

Just a few more years.

And you're going to see people that are willing to vote both ways.

But with a credible candidate for governor this year, as opposed to basically not showing up with 1 in 2020, that has to help.

Oh, I couldn't agree more.

And I think also at the at the very top of the ticket is real.

Garcia, someone who is, an immigrant himself.

I came as a child from, Cuba.

he has spent most of his life in Washington as an emergency room doctor.

He's done extensive work with organizations that work with, egg, egg workers in central Washington.

he's conservative because he's experienced what it's like to live in a country like Cuba.

and he's a really good top of the ticket for us to, I would say one of the critiques of the Republican Party might be, that they haven't been strong enough in terms of messaging what they're for.

We know what they're against.

But as the opposition party, it's it's an easy slot to fall into to, to, to to be the the outspoken, out of power critics.

But what does the GOP need to stand up and before and tell the people of Washington state, particularly western Washington, these are some ideas that need to be considered, in light of this one party rule.

Well, let me sort of answer the criticism first.

You know, the way the way that a legislative party, identifies themselves is, legislation and, single party government has developed in Washington.

You don't get signature legislation.

I mean, I've, I've prime sponsored almost nothing that has passed, because the majority party controls the agenda and those bills don't even get hearings.

Yeah.

So the the way that you communicate is, is very much constrained when you're in the minority.

But I think what you will always find with Republicans of, of almost every stripe is, we believe in the free market economy.

We believe that our country has become the most successful and wealthy nation in the history of the world, because we allow the economy to function.

I don't think you're going to find Republicans in general that are fanatically against, regulations.

But we want regulations that make sense and make sense for everybody and to build the economy.

That's where we really, really have common ground.

And then the other thing in Washington in particular is Republicans have a have a very strong tradition of conservation.

And, we can find lots of common ground around preserving our environment, but also preserving the things that in the environment that people express their culture.

And we believe in the utilization of natural resources, hunting, fishing, tribal, treaty rights are important to many of us.

These we have in common.

You've been proposing and I've been talking about this for years as well, needing a dedicated revenue source for salmon recovery in Puget Sound.

100 billion.

100 million.

You wish it was a billion, $100 million effort?

that you've proposed?

do you think that will come to pass someday?

Do you plan on continuing to lobby for that?

Well, I got to be careful what I say because, if I say lobbying, I can't do that until I'm, until my term is over.

Simply persuading in the.

Yeah, exactly.

Absolutely.

this is a core value for me.

you know that I grew up along the squally.

I've got lots of friends that that have a culture that involves hunting and fishing.

And, I'm going to keep proposing those things, and I'm 100% sure I'm going to find Republicans and Democrats that are willing to sponsor and vote for these bills.

Talked about the economy.

Do you think that we've built a budgetary timebomb in this state?

To some degree, the budget's doubled in in a decade, far outstripping population growth or inflation.

is that sustainable in the long run in your view?

Well, your question makes it plain that it's not, you know, Washington, has has, I think, had these huge advantages.

some of it is our natural environment, but a lot of it is because Bill Boeing, founded a company here.

the other bill at Microsoft founded a company, and we also have Amazon.

And these have just driven an economy that's the envy of the world.

And I don't know that we see any successors to those as these incredible, you know, sort of one off economic drivers.

So we're going to have to, I think, be like most of the rest of the country and the rest of the world have, sustainable growth.

It's probably a lot slower than it is now.

And I think I think Covid spending really has done a disservice to long term sustainable budgets, because even though people knew that that was one time money, it becomes part of your budget, it becomes part of your expectation.

And I don't care whether you are the private sector or the public sector.

It's it's hard to manage budgets that are static, let alone budgets that are going down contracting.

Exactly.

And that that Covid spending may have accomplished, one purpose.

But it really, I think, is going to bite us now that we have to adjust to a world that's a little different.

Last 30s what are your plans going forward?

Well, I keep telling people, I'm, going to, do just enough consulting so that I can afford my hunting and fishing habit.

And, I'm, I love, working in, natural resources.

I'm going to keep doing that.

I've got a small number of clients, and I'm going to keep it small.

You still working on the farm?

Do you?

you know, the farm is in great hands.

so, no sit on the board.

No, I've got a great family that takes care of that.

JT, thanks so much for coming to northwest now and for your service over the years.

Well, thank you.

I really appreciate it.

Joining us now is sixth District Congressman Derek Kilmer, who steps down from Congress after a dozen years in office.

Kilmer has a reputation as a respected moderate who understands both capitalism and the Commons and has worked to promote bipartisanship and congressional modernization.

Congressman Kilmer, great to have you here on northwest now from Washington DC.

Let's talk a little bit about your decision not to run for reelection.

If you could put a percentage on it, what percentage of that is family considerations?

What percentage of that is professional or politics?

Yeah.

You know, I I've always looked at life as chapters and at the end of my term in Congress, this will be 20 years in public service, which seemed about right.

And, so, you know, my decision was largely driven by that, by my view that, that I'm proud of the service that I had both the eight years I did in the state legislature and the 12 that I've done in Congress.

But it felt like it was about time to to pursue the next, the next chapter.

Let's talk a little bit about politics itself and the toxic nature of the division.

I would think that that would have to play some role in your decision as well, trying to battle through that, stay positive and feel like you're heading in a good direction.

Well, listen, you know, it's it's clear that, Congress was a fixer upper when I got here, and it still was a fixer upper.

Having said that, the thing that I'm perhaps most proud of is the work that I've done in that our team has done just trying to make the place better.

I, co-chair a group in Congress called the Bipartisan Working Group, with which, without a lot of fanfare, is a group of Democrats and Republicans who are trying to figure out where we can find some common ground, which is hard, but I think important.

I spent four years leading the some called the Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress, which was nicknamed the Fix Congress Committee.

And, you know, again, without a lot of fanfare, we, you know, on a bipartisan basis, passed more than 200 recommendations to make Congress work better for the American people.

Each one of those had support by both Democrats and Republicans.

And, you know, you're not going to hear about that on cable news, but I think it demonstrates that, you know, sometimes if you want things to work differently in Congress, you just have to do things differently in Congress.

And I've always tried to approach my role within this in within the institution as being a loving critic, understanding, it's not perfect, but wanting to build it, not destroy it.

And, you know, turn things down is easy.

And we see that a fair amount in our politics these days.

And building things can be hard.

But I think it's really important.

I know you could go an hour on your wish list for reforming Congress, no doubt about that.

But, you know, in 60s maybe give me your 1 or 2.

What are the 1 or 2 things that you think remain out there that would really, despite the politics, help, help reform Congress to make it operate better?

I think there's three things.

I mean, often I'll get asked, you know what?

What's.

The what's the one thing?

What's the silver bullet?

And I just don't think there is one.

I think it's more like silver buckshot.

The reality is, you could pass all 202 recommendations from the modernization committee, and there would still be challenges.

And, and some of that is due to big systemic issues and the three big systemic issues that I think would be worthy of, of, of action if we want to be serious about making things work better as one reform to how we do Partizan, I would do political primaries.

now our state does it pretty well.

We have a top two system.

There are states that have a ranked choice voting system, but the majority of states still have closed Partizan primaries.

And that's why you see a lot of members of Congress say, gosh, I agree with you.

But if I if I work with you on that, man, I'll get a primary and I'll get beat.

second, the Partizan gerrymandering, I believe that, that the people should choose their elected officials rather than elected officials choosing their voters.

And then three is the role of money in politics.

There is too much money in our political system.

And again, I think if we want to be serious about making the system function better, it's time to address that.

Talk a little bit about some of the nuts and bolts of both.

Your decision and Cathy McMorris Rodgers.

I mean, we're giving up some some seniority, and that matters, right?

Yeah.

Listen, I mean, the good news is we've got a terrific delegation in our state.

I still remember 12 years ago coming in and people saying, gosh, you know, Norm dicks is irreplaceable.

And guess what?

Norm dicks is irreplaceable.

He was irreplaceable.

you know, and, my successor will blaze their trail, and we'll do good things.

Kathy's successor, Will will also find their way in this place and get good things done.

And, you know, that's, I actually think it's healthy for institutions to see new blood come in.

You know, they, you know, having said that, the the problem in Congress is not tenure.

there are new members of Congress that are part of the solution.

There are new members of Congress that are part of the problem.

There are long tenured members who are part of the solution, and there are long tenured members that are part of the problem.

But I do think it's healthy for the organization to see new blood come in and, and new ideas to come in.

And I think the Washington delegation is going to be just fine.

You really couldn't have written this in a script, but you were going to go to UPS and give a nice speech on civility.

but it was disrupted by protesters.

And I asked myself, have they no sense of irony?

what would you have liked to have said if you would have been allowed to speak their ups?

Well, the speech I planned to give was about the fact that not only in Congress, but throughout our community, throughout our society, we need to figure out how to disagree better.

And I think that's really true.

I think the actions that night sort of made the case for my remarks that we need to figure out how to have civil discourse better.

And that's what I'm going to continue to push, not just in the eight months plus that I have remaining in this role, but, in my next life, too, as a as a citizen talking about some of the left here, some on the right, how do we get the nuts out of a cupcake?

Derek I think that's a big one.

Well, listen, you know, when I talk about how to, disagree better, it doesn't just apply to Congress, right?

A lot of this depends on what we as a citizens want to see.

I had a experience a few years back where I visited a YMCA in our region, thinking they were going to talk to me about gymnasiums, losing money because of the pandemic, but they wanted to talk to me about was fights breaking out at the Y over politics, over the had someone was wearing the shirt, someone was wearing a cable news channel, someone was watching them on the elliptical.

And the reality is, you know, that has less to do with Congress and more to do with where we are as Americans right now.

There was a poll recently that found that 70% of Americans agree with the statement that America is now so divided, is incapable of solving big problems.

That was an NBC news poll.

There was a battleground poll that asked Americans on a scale of 0 to 100, with zero being no conflict and 100 being civil war, to identify where they put America right now.

And the median score was a 70.

And I just think I and we all utter refuse to accept that.

I just refuse to accept that.

Well, you know, toxic polarization is just life in America in 2024 that we won't get anything done.

And we'll have to worry when we go to the YMCA or, to church or wherever about you know, getting into fights.

Yeah, I think you I think you make a great of part of my approach on this.

I've actually sponsored a bill called the Building Civic Bridges Act.

It is a big Partizan bill that's focused on actually trying to support that type of bridge building within our communities to get people to actually work through their issues, to actually have dialog and discussion, and to support organizations that are doing the hard work like the YMCA is now in terms of trying to bring people together.

That's what I think it's going to take.

Yeah.

You're used as a congressman to to have the lens focused on you.

I want you to turn the camera around and focus on the media, because you've now had quite a bit of experience with the media generally speaking, both locally and nationally.

How much of this rests at the doorstep of of the media and maybe even journalism when it comes to toxic politics, when it comes to uncivil discourse?

feel free to share your thoughts on that.

Well, listen, I think we all have to do better.

You know, obviously, part of this highlights the importance of the work you're doing, the important role that local media plays, the reality is, local media is far more likely to write about important work, important projects, the types of things, frankly, that I like to read about and to, see on, TV and less the sort of outrage of the day that you're most likely to see on cable news.

And so part of the effort, I think, needs to be really to support, our public media and to support our locally owned media.

I think we're far more likely to get coverage that's healthy for democracy.

when we do that, we have about 2.5 minutes left, and I want to devote part of that to what do you consider to be your your proudest accomplishments?

I have a note talking here about the Recopy act, but if you had to pick 1 or 2 of the things that you will look back at and say, you know something?

I was involved in that, what would those be?

Well, I'm really proud of the team that I have.

We have a great staff that is really focused on our constituents, and that's probably the thing I'm proudest of.

But you mentioned the recompute act.

The Recompute act, it's a new program that is focused on helping communities that have faced persistent economic distress.

You know, I grew up in Port Angeles.

I was in high school when the timber industry took it on the chin.

And so a lot of my friends parents lose their jobs.

That's what I ended up working on in college and graduate school.

My my senior thesis in college was, how do you help timber towns in Washington state?

It's why I worked in economic development in Tacoma, and it's why I ran for office in the first place.

We actually took some of the lessons learned and turned it into policy.

We turned it into a bill called the Re Compute Act, focused on providing some flexible, long term assistance to communities that need a little help to turn things around economically.

That bill was included as a pilot program in the Chips and Science Act, which passed a couple of years ago, and when that program was rolled out by the Economic Development Administration, it became the most popular program in the history of that agency.

and I'm very excited.

They've identified 22 finalists for funding to get some help in one of the 22 finalists is the north end of the Olympic Peninsula, where I grew up.

So I'm proud of that because I think it's important that we direct some help to communities that need it, because I think no matter what zip code you live in, you ought to have a shot.

There's other things I'm proud of.

Obviously, the work that we talked about on trying to make Congress work better, I chaired this committee called the Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress, that was able to pass a number of recommendations.

Now, I'm conscious that your viewers may say, hey, well, Congress is clearly working.

Well, bang up job Kilmer.

But I think about it a little bit like, I did when I saw the House chaplain during like the 15th vote on speaker of the House, I saw her and I said, pray harder.

And she said, well, imagine how rough this place would be if I wasn't praying so hard.

And I like that.

And, it makes me, reflect a little bit like I do on the work of the modernization committee.

it may still need some work, but it could be a lot worse.

But for the work of our committee, Derek, this is going to be a fast one.

We have 20s left, but just give us some insight.

What are your plans going forward?

I don't know yet.

My plan, frankly, is to focus on continuing to serve the people of Washington's sixth Congressional District.

I've got eight more months in this job and the plan is to run to the tape.

All right.

Derek Kilmer, thanks so much for joining us here on northwest now.

And thanks for your years of service.

You bet.

Thank you.

I want to thank both JT Wilcox and Derek Kilmer for the time they've spent over the years speaking to you, the northwest now audience.

The bottom line one is a Republican and one is a Democrat.

And there's just no way to sugarcoat this.

Their departures represent a massive loss to the state of Washington and the general body politic.

It's painfully obvious now that fixing our toxic politics and dysfunctional governance is going to be left to a younger generation that is hopefully less dogmatic and ideological, more willing to learn and think, and bold enough to remake an America that embraces its traditional core values and at the same time embraces the commons and works for everybody.

It can be done, and it's this republic's only hope.

I hope this program got you thinking and talking.

You can find this program on the web at kbtc.org.

Stream it through the PBS app or listen on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

That's going to do it for this edition of northwest.

Now, until next time, I'm Tom Layson.

Thanks for watching.

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