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>> Does getting a COVID vaccine mean you don't have enough religious faith?

Is getting the COVID vaccination succumbing to the whims of a secular government?

Or walking away from God?

Those are some of the dilemmas that the faithful grapple with, often with devastating results as COVID ravages the unvaccinated.

Religious faith and the COVID vaccine is the discussion tonight, on Northwest Now.

[ Music ] While there is a very long tradition of institutional learning, education, and innovation embraced by the world's major religions, most also have more fundamentalist branches that tend to eschew science, modernity, and the scientific innovations of mankind.

It is that impulse that may be further opening the door for COVID infections among the faithful.

Plagues of epic proportions are ever present in religious texts and COVID is a modern day example.

But what's different this time around is that in 2021, we've got the technologies to fight it, from masks to knowledge about social distancing, to the big one; vaccinations.

So why does reconciling science and faith remain so vexing?

Joining us now are Pastor Dan Whitmarsh with Lakebay Community Church, Pastor Mike Yoder with Tacoma Associated Ministries, Rabbi Stefan Tiwy with the Temple Beth El, and the Reverend Gregory Christopher, President of the Tacoma Ministerial Alliance.

Balancing reason and revelation, I want each of you to give me a few minutes on how do science and faith relate, and Dan, can they coexist?

>> I think that science and revelation should go hand in hand.

I think if there's a creator God, which I believe there is, who spoke and created all that is, then there's a God who created design behind everything that is.

And the more that we dig into and understand how the universe works, the more to me we understand the mind of the creator who is behind all that.

And so, there are times that science had maybe pushed a little bit too far and made claims that have been proven to be false.

But there are also times that science has, has enlightened the air of religion and revealed things that we believe to be true that we found out later on probably weren't.

And so I think the two really should go hand in hand and try to learn from each other, rather than see themselves in competition with each other.

>> Mike?

>> You know, I first, I'm not a theologian, I'm a faith leader, Director of Associated Ministries, a non-profit that's an interfaith convening agency, so I see more of the, of the moral imperative to show up for the common good of our community.

And I think if science tells us that the common good is to have a scientific approach to a vaccine, some people are maybe concerned about that, but I think if, even if we have to sacrifice to do something that we think is not necessarily something that we'd normally be super comfortable with, but as people of faith, if that's what reason tells us is the best thing to do to invest in the common good, and that's our highest moral calling, and I think we follow the science for the sake of the common good.

>> And I think you bring up a good point, that other orientation that is supposed to come along with faith, there is a communal piece to that.

As unpopular as that is sometimes, when it comes to people who are thinking about the Book of Revelations and other things that inform their ideas about the collective and government versus the Kingdom of God and some of those things, there is a communal piece to all this too.

>> Absolutely.

Absolutely, so I try to stay focused on that side of it.

I think it's hard, it's hard to lead with scientific debates in faith circles.

I think it's easier to say; we must, we must follow our mandate to love neighbor and to accomplish the common good and a lot of times what we need to do to achieve that goal, is follow the science.

>> Stefan?

>> In Judaism, learning and study has always been the key imperative, it's even a mitzvah, [inaudible] commandment, taking care of other people, there's a concept, it's called [foreign words], it means the saving of a soul.

How many Jews are doctors, not only today but also throughout the centuries?

Taking care of others and using science and our understanding of the world to improve and help the lives of others is a key commandment.

So Judaism doesn't, you know, say one against the other, as Daniel was mentioning before, literally go hand in hand, it's all part in fulfilling our obligation to God by taking care of one another, exploring the world, getting a better understanding so we can act better and more faithful in that way, by taking care of one another.

>> And finally, Gregory, your take on balancing reason and revelation and can the two; science and faith, coexist?

>> So, so I concur with the rest of my brothers, but I do think that faith and science can coexist and I think that it has always coexisted and I think that the two need to see each other as complimentary of one another and not necessarily in conflict.

And because you know, we depend on science in just about everything we do, including you know, restructuring our churches to go live stream you know, a lot of that is science, math, you know, so we do-- but one of the things that we can't do is that we just can't enforce, is the faith goal is that we can't put God in the box of science.

So that's, I think that's when we start you know, really getting in trouble is when we try to put God in the box and close Him in and based on the scientific findings and opposed to just, you know, understanding you know, the science that helped govern and shape you know, just about everything we do.

>> But just because it's science doesn't mean it's not real, I think is what you're saying.

>> Right.

Right, there you go.

>> Yeah.

That's what I [inaudible].

So of course there's a long tradition, and Stefan, you [inaudible] that there's a long tradition of learning and academia, from the Jesuits to the you name it, but what we're really talking about is the more fundamentalist sects, the more fundamentalist pieces of all of these religions.

It sounds very reasonable here to say, well they should coexist and one reveals the other, we get that.

So Dan, how do we deal with that more fundamental view of you know, not being of this world?

Understanding the Kingdom of God, being your own person and rejecting the world to some degree, that you're a, you're in a foreign land, you're an alien on this planet.

That's where a lot of this comes from.

How do you, what's your discussion with those folks and what does that look like?

>> Well I want to begin by acknowledging that much of the impulse towards fundamentalism, it's a healthy trying to maintain and to claim the things that are important, that sometimes the world chases after change for the sake of change.

And there are times to say no, we need to hold onto traditions and beliefs and the heritage and where we've come from and there is a, there's a healthy impulse there to say let's not jump ahead too quickly, let's take our time to process and think and make sure that the decisions that we're making are wise decisions.

So I want to acknowledge and honor that even my friends who are more opposed to the masking mandates and the vaccine mandates, many of them rightfully so, are questioning what rights the government has to tell us how to live our lives and those are very valuable questions.

>> And that comes right out of the scripture, from the mark of the beast on, and out of Revelations, I mean people are legitimately afraid of that, or believe they're legitimately afraid of that kind of thing in this crisis, right?

>> Yes, they are.

And so I want to honor that, I also think that there are a large strains within Christianity, within Judaism, with many other religious manifestations that don't follow those lines, and sometimes those lines claim the narrative as if theirs is the only right way, and so it can be to broaden the discussion, it's as you just mentioned, there are many other ways of reading the story of the mark of the beast and realize it's not even talking about some future event, it's talking about what was happening in Ephesus in the 1st century but we need to have spaces to have those conversations.

And I really think more than anything, sitting down with people, honoring where they're coming from, but then also finding spaces to speak as we understand the truth to be and a broader theological understanding to just keep having those conversations and see if slowly we can start to move the dial.

>> And Mike, you with the Associated Ministries, mentioned that you are a convener of a lot of different congregations and pastors, and anybody who wants to speak about this may, after Mike.

What has been the experience with the congregations?

Have there been a lot of people moving and changing, saying I'm not going in here anymore these guys are not doing it right, I'm going over here?

What's been the impact on actually the body of faith itself?

>> Right, you hear some anecdotal stories about that.

I don't think there's any kind of mass migration, I think there is a little bit of a shifting and a sorting out as there is and has been for a lot of reasons that would cause people to reflect what faith community really fits them the best.

I would like to address though this idea that there's a certain you know, sect of fundamentalists, Evangelical Christianity that's very opposed-- I think yes, that has been in the news, I think it's a little overstated honestly, I was just reviewing a Pew research poll that said people who regularly attend religious services, they said only 5% of them have ever heard their clergy member, this is of any faith in America, only 5% have ever heard their clergy member actively say things against being vaccinated.

So I'm not sure there's a widespread conspiracy theory of a certain type of people of faith that are actively opposing this.

Yes, there are many congregations and some examples that make the news, but I think by and large what I'm hearing is people of faith are doing the right thing, they're following the leadership of their faith leader, the same Pew research survey that was just done in late September, showed that the vast majority of people who attend religious services are actually trust the advice of their faith leader as much as almost anybody else in public society other than their personal doctor.

So it's one of the people that, one of the persons that they most trust.

And so, my concern is just that people of, that faith leaders are doing their part to actually lead out with moral leadership, despite what we think we should say or shouldn't say or is it government or just completely-- you know, it's like people are ready to follow the lead of their faith leaders, by and large.

But the sad thing is that the survey found that the majority of people in America have not heard their faith leader say anything about COVID or vaccinations.

>> And I would also guess too that the person who walks out of the building after being confronted with a mask and says nope, you may never hear from them anyway.

They may not come up to you and say, Rabbi, I'm not wearing the mask so I'm leaving.

It may be hey, where's John been the past month?

Well, John's not there anymore because he doesn't want to wear a mask.

What's your experience with this?

And I know in the fundamentalist community, this has been a big story in New York City with vaccinations and masks.

Does that flow through at all here to the West Coast and what's your experience been there?

>> [inaudible] at Temple Beth El, we are a reframe synagogue, we are on the liberal end of things.

So just to get an idea, Judaism is a broad spectrum from the ultra-Orthodox community but you mentioned New York, these incidents that happened to the reframed reconstruction's liberal end.

So far, thank goodness, there were no major incidents like that, there were several people who did not approve of the precautions that we put in place.

But we were following along with the CDC guidelines, it went back and forth many times, depending on how the change situation was, but it was also something important and we made a point of communicating that with the congregation so that everybody's on the same page, why are we doing things, also if there's a change of policy.

For example, right now, we are asking populate oxygen mask and also if they want to attend services inside, that they are vaccinated and to show their vaccination before.

We got really lucky with our high holidays which happened in September this year, we were actually able to do them outside on the lawn in front of the Temple, which was actually a beautiful setting out in nature, and there, we also allowed for people, as long as they're socially distanced, if they did not have the vaccination so couldn't get vaccinated for one reason or the other.

So we've been trying to also accommodate and making people comfortable there, but at the same time also, as I mentioned before, [inaudible] taking care of our community as a whole, not to put anybody else at risk.

>> Yeah.

>> Because saving a life is like saving a world as it says in the [inaudible] which [inaudible] made that quote very famous.

So taking care of our people and taking precautions to save lives is the key impetus here.

>> And I'm sure there's a reality too at some point.

Gregory, maybe you can address this too, where you know you're going to have some walkouts or some people who just kind of fade away because maybe they don't agree with something, but you also know you can't please all the people all the time.

That's not your job either.

So what are your thoughts about that?

>> So, for me, my secret weapon for trying to address those concerns from members that just don't want to get vaccinated, don't want to wear a mask, is I try to love them through it, you know?

So if they say that hey, you know, I'm just not coming back, I'm not going to get vaccinated, then you know, I call them up within a week, hey, how's it going?

How are you, you know?

Just checking on you, you know.

And just want you to know how much God loves you and then I try to, try to lead them to a consciousness of what our faith really projects and that's loving others more than we love ourselves.

And let them kind of reach this conclusion that hey, you know, am I actually practicing loving others more than I love myself?

And so, so at [inaudible] some of the members have come back, some have not, and so, some of the quote unquote, exports saying that you know, we're just going to lose some people, period.

But we'll gain others, you know.

Because we're talking about it more over the pulpit now because you know, it's you know, if we don't teach being cautious, then we can end up, you know, in are real bad place, you know?

But I think that, and Dan alluded to this, is that you know, we have to validate their concerns and try to love them through it, you know?

In the poll said okay, well now that you believe that way, now you're my enemy, no.

You're still my brother, we're just in a disagreement but with God we could work through this.

>> Mm hmm.

Dan, I wanted to get you on that too, in a piece we did with you earlier this year, you had talked about there was some shuffling on the Key Peninsula, these folks go here, these folks came here.

What was the experience with that?

Has it been acrimonious or has it been more of kind of a settling out, of people finding a better fit.

How do you, how do you take it?

>> I wouldn't say it's been very acrimonious, people, it's been more of a gentle drifting away or sliding in.

I'm not hearing people speaking I'll of other churches or other pastors.

I hear comments like, I didn't necessarily appreciate their choice to not wear masks because we're at risk and we heard that you were, so we're coming back here.

The pastors on the Key Peninsula work really hard to stay in community with each other, we have lunch once a month and we get together where we can and communicate and so, so at that level we're not allowing it to divide us and we're trying to love each other in that space even though we disagree amongst the churches how with handle this.

But, there certainly has been a shifting, there certainly have been people who've left some churches and made their way to others, that have approached this in ways that were more, who they felt they needed to be.

But I wouldn't say it's been particularly angry.

People have been civil.

>> Mm hmm.

Yeah, one of the interesting questions, there is an element of marketing that takes place when it comes to religion and in going to church.

And I think your point is well-taken about a very vocal media focused group of folks who have been very anti-government and very anti-mandate, and very anti-mask, that is probably an outlier.

With that said, what does that do for the marketing of religion, of faith, and of church?

And I know you don't view it as marketing, I just am trying to think of a better synonym for it.

But the attraction of religion.

Has it helped or hurt?

>> You know, I'm so glad you mentioned that, because that really is you know, what, where I focus because as Associated Ministries, as a nonprofit, we're you know, we're an interfaith convening agency, we don't have a congregation.

I don't lead a particular flock, we're just there to try to lift up, to engage and support faith communities of all types in this community to live out, you know, their mandate, to live out their theology.

And that same Pew survey that I mentioned earlier, also had a concerning statistic which was that 22% of the respondents said that they think faith communities do more good than harm.

Only 22%, 25% said right now they're feeling that faith communities do more harm than good and 52% said that they don't think faith communities make any difference.

Now that is where I am you know, really concerned, because I want to lift up, you know, the moral voice, the moral reputation of people of faith in Pierce County, Washington.

That's what gets me going every day, I'm not there to, you know, walk alongside a particular flock of people, but to support faith leaders and communities of faith in showing up really, in living out you know, their calling.

And I think when we don't show up at a time such as this, at the biggest pandemic crisis any of us have ever lived through-- >> Of biblical proportions.

>> -- of biblical proportions, and we're silent from our pulpits, I mean that, that's why I'm out here having pastors luncheons and trying, you know, with the Health Department and we're trying to give the information and the talking points and the resources to clergy faith leaders so that they can actually kind of live out and live up to the reputation, the community is watching, will people of faith actually show up for the good of our community and I'm going to do everything I can so that they you know, that they can live up to that reputation that the community, I think, is expecting from them.

>> To embolden and enable and equip those pastors who are otherwise equipped to talk about many other things, but to give, maybe to give them a little backbone on this issues.

>> Exactly, they're maybe not equipped for this.

So you know, we certainly can understand that.

So let's come alongside them and help them understand what it means to step up at a time like this and speak out.

>> So Stefan, do these controversies of the religious aren't going to get vaccinated, they're anti-maskers, they're anti-- helping or hurting religion?

Is there a way to turn it where it, to your advantage, I mean how do you, how do you view this from a 30,000 foot perspective about drawing populate to faith or pushing people away from faith?

>> Well it's like, almost like the magic wand kind of question, kind of how can we solve all these pieces, of course it's a difficult situation because it's really enabling this very black and white kind of thing, one or the other but there's nothing in between, in between there.

I'm also a bit saddened how politicized the whole situation has become.

That sometimes people don't necessarily listening for that only because they associate following a certain mandate or not following mandate with assuming a certain political position.

I think this is really where the problem has, a big problem has begun because that also colors the whole situation that is a medical one.

Taking care of one's health and also someone's own health and that of others, which really became politicized.

So pretty much, I'm not wearing a mask because you know, that's what the government tells, tells me to.

It seems for example, one option that you know that comes out of this whole situation and it's very, it's very difficult.

Unfortunately I don't think I'll have the answer to that kind of question, something I wish I had, believe you me.

But just having that, having these conversations going on in a respectful way, because very often it also because it's so politically charged that only becomes into shouting matches so you know, one position against the other.

To actually be open to dialogue and to listening to arguments that are there.

>> In listening to this, it really strikes me, Gregory, and this goes back to civil rights in the pulpit, and a lot of issues that I think you've dealt with over the years.

There's a courage piece to this too, isn't there, amongst pastors and church leadership?

>> It is.

It is and you know, and I've shared this with the [inaudible] Ministry Alliance that you know, you know, and Mike alluded to this, is that you know, now is the time for us to have the boldness of the spirit of God and then demonstrate that boldness in a loving, in a kind way.

And you know, and not let it divide us you know, and so in addition to that as the Rabbi was saying, you know, politics got in this thing and just messed it up.

You know, and that so one of the things that I asked a member to do or even a person who I'm having conversation with about you know, whether or not they want to get vaccinated or not, on whether it's an infringement on their rights, you know, ask them the question; well take politics out of this, and let me know what's your conclusion.

You know, and so you know, politics is, has, I think that's what really has damaged the faith in people in regards to religion, you know, because now they're seeing faith leaders you know, not acting like faith leaders.

We're tearing each other down in media now, you know, everybody could, just about everybody could get access to what's actually going on and so we have, we have to, we have to keep that love in front.

You know, disagree to agree, or agree to disagree, you know, we have to, we have to show that.

So I ask God to temper me in the pulpit when I'm preaching and surround you know, is there any [inaudible] in Gilead, you know, is there something that God want to use to save us?

You know, and not you know, just start attacking folks.

I think that have taken a particular scripture out of context to meet their needs.

So, you know.

>> So it's the leadership piece.

>> Yeah, you know, we have to lead and God has given us that boldness and that strength, it's already within us, we have to make the choice to be able to walk in that boldness and there's a scripture that says; and be not afraid of their faces.

So regardless of how angry they're looking out there, we have to tell the truth in love.

But you'll be surprised what love can do to angry people.

>> And I'm going to leave it at that.

That's a nice way to end.

Thank you so much, thanks everybody for coming to Northwest Now.

The Pew Research Center finds that Washington is a very low religion state.

And that among the faithful here, the vast majority identify as Christians, with the other major world religions each coming in at way less than 1% of the population.

The bottom line, even though we weren't able to book members of non-Judeo Christian faiths in this program, the same basic truths remain, which is that COVID tests the relationship between faith and science and that the two must find a way to coexist.

I hope this program got you thinking and talking.

To watch this program again or to share it with others, Northwest Now can be found on the web at kbtc.org and be sure to follow us on Twitter @NorthwestNow.

Thanks for taking a closer look on this edition of Northwest Now, until next time, I'm Tom Layson, thanks for watching.

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