Northwest now is supported in part by viewers like you.

Thank you.

A Republican has served as Washington secretary of state for nearly six decades.

But that streak could now be in jeopardy.

But the secretary's office isn't just about Ds and Rs.

It's about the integrity of our elections brought into question by Trumpist Republicans, whose baseless claims of fraud have destabilized this country.

In Washington, voters may not face such a stark choice, with an election affirming Democrat and a highly reputable independent running for office.

That's the discussion next on Northwest Now.

Republican Kim Wyman served as Washington's secretary of state for eight years before resigning to join the Biden administration, where she heads up the federal cyber and Infrastructure Agency.

She was the only statewide elected Republican on the West Coast.

Running to fill her role in this year's special election or the incumbent Democrat, U.S. Army veteran Steve Hobbs, and independent candidate in Pierce County Auditor Julie Anderson.

Hobbs served as a District 44 senator from 2007 until his appointment to the secretary of State's position by Governor Inslee last November.

Steve Hobbs, thanks so much for coming in Northwest now.

Great to have you as a guest on this program.

First question is very basic, but I think it needs to be answered.

Where's the real daylight between you and your opponent?

Well, it really has to do with experience.

It has to do with the fact that the office of secretary of state has changed quite a bit in the last five, ten years and is now a office that has to push back on cyber threats to elections.

It's no secret that Russia, China, Iran and others have been doing what they can to disrupt elections, also with misinformation, disinformation, not just extremists, but also outside the country.

The same countries that I mentioned are trying to do everything they can to bring down this country.

And so having the background, working the National Security Agency, being a public affairs officer, the military have a graduate department, defense information school.

It means a lot in this time.

And in fact, secretaries of state have to receive security clearances now and luckily already have a security clearance.

And very familiar with that.

And there is the difference where she calls herself a nonpartisan I'm course a Democrat, but I'm more of a bipartisan person.

I work across the aisle.

There's no secret in that.

Some of the challenges I've had within my own party and the other party as well.

Both of those are segways into questions i have for you.

Let's start with the one which is the nonpartisan piece.

I have to tell you.

Shouldn't the secretary of state's office be nonpartisan?

You know, what I've told everyone is I'm fine with that.

It doesn't bother me.

I think it really matters who is in the office.

Right.

So somebody like myself who is not only fought against both sides of the aisle, being a moderate, being a centrist, but I've also worked quite well with both sides of the aisle.

When I was when the Republicans took the majority in the state Senate and they still kept me as chair of a committee, I worked to create a bipartisan not only bipartisan operating budget, but I did bipartisan transportation budgets when I was chair transportation because you have to have the buy off, I believe, of everyone when you do these big packages so that it helps all Washingtonians.

And that's, I believe, what you're referring to when you refer to yourself as a radical moderate.

That gestures at that, correct?

Yes.

Yes.

That is quite the case.

I have you know, I have thought both Republicans and Democrats and I've worked with both Republicans and Democrats.

And look, this office requires you to work with both sides of the aisle to get budgets done, to get policies passed.

And saying that you're not going to work with both sides doesn't really work in an environment like this.

Hitting the other piece of your previous answer, which was about the external threat to elections.

Externally, as you mentioned, the Russians have been knocking at the door.

And internally, there was some counties apparently that tried to sidestep some threat assessments in the process last time.

Give us a little specific background on those.

What as to what those threats were and a feel in your mind for what degree they still remain a threat?

Yes, well, I will tell you that my outreach with Secretary Wineman in November, she had told me that there was Russian perhaps Russian software that was identified, but was removed through a scrubbing the scrubbing the system.

And then in February, when I was in office, we had received a misinformation campaign or growing misinformation campaign to eliminate or to remove a cybersecurity device as part of our layered protection on our system networks.

And it was rather effective to the point where two county auditors requested our help to push back on this misinformation.

And one county actually removed it's called an Albert sensor and removed the sensor.

And it was a story on NPR's All Things Considered.

And and what is the secretary of state's role in being persuasive and influential statewide when it comes to addressing some of those fires that pop up right at the crucial moment?

Absolutely.

For one, we are expanding our role in cybersecurity.

We doubled the size of our team.

We're strengthening our existing relationships with the National Guard.

That does cybersecurity helps us do cybersecurity along with our partnership that we built with homeland security.

But the one thing that we have to do in this office is commit to two forms of courses of action that we have to do.

One is push back on the misinformation.

You can no longer sit idly by and allow a false narrative, become a tweet, become a retweet, become a meme.

Next thing you know, people take it as perception and they're storming the state capitol.

They're storming the U.S. Capitol.

The other thing is not taking for granted our elections and being able to let people know how elections are ran too many times.

Year after year, we say, get out the vote, make sure you vote, and that's a good thing.

But now we have to tell people how your vote is processed, that your vote is secure, transparent.

It's a fair system.

And that that's yeah, that's what we need to do because we haven't done it.

Yeah.

I think your points well-taken there that, that, I think folks understand the basics of it.

But, but I think if they could really look under the hood and see the checks and balances and there was some good media or good tutorials on that that were very accessible, I see that helping rebuild confidence.

So that's my next question for you.

With all those things in mind, you've talked about some of the specific steps we have a problem with confidence.

There was a recent poll out of the University of Chicago that is just stunning and people are not confident.

And the system and the economics, everything and to some degree relies on confidence.

How how do you solve that?

Tom It's it's it's it's disheartening.

I'm going to give you another poll.

It was recently in five, and they had said that 35% of Washingtonians think that the elections in 2020 were fraudulent.

That is not good.

And that's why we have to do our part, not just the secretary of state, but assisting our 39 county partners out there.

Let people know, hey, did you know that we check all those signatures?

Did you know that anybody can actually go to the county election center and see the process, see the ballots coming in, see them being counted?

Did you know that the tabulation system isn't even connected to the Internet?

But people don't know that.

People don't know that our state is part of the parts.

Erik Which is the Elections Registration Information Center.

And we are we talk to other states so that somebody moves to another state.

We're going to find out if somebody passes away.

We're going to find out about it.

You know, in this this myth out there is like, well, I know someone that has multiple ballots.

They vote in multiple, multiple jurisdictions the same time.

It's not true.

We will catch you.

And counties have caught people that you've given a good outline of some of the need for education and and to make people aware of those things that some of the processes that are in place.

But here's a question for you.

If elected, what's on your to do list?

I think Washington state's elections are fantastic and the county auditors I know are fantastic.

And the state officials, you know, in my limited knowledge in this role.

But what is on the to do list?

What it can't be perfect.

What still needs to be done?

If you were to get elected, what are you going to what with our election process is on your maybe top top three got to get done list.

Well, I mean, really, I hate beating the drum again, but it's really getting the voter outreach out there and education.

And so we are going to ask the legislature again and we were successful this year to to get the have enough money to put the kind of public service announcements if you will, out to the community, assist the 39 county partners that we have out there.

And on top of the one thing that we are doing that we haven't done in the past is really beef up the voter outreach portion of it by reaching out to those communities most disenfranchized underserved, having what King County has, which is a trusted messenger program, where you have people who have to know the language, who know the community, know the culture so we can interact with them.

Talking with the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce.

I'm hoping that maybe we can partner with them or some other group out there in eastern Washington so that we can help those citizens who are uncertain about how the voting process is done.

Additionally, you may not know this, but there was a study out by the state auditor just a couple of months ago stating that ballot rejection rates are higher among people of color.

So blacks are three times as much Hispanics, twice as much Asians and twice as much.

And so what we need to do is go out there and solve that issue as well.

And so really on my to do list is doing more what we're doing now and creating a more focused approach by actually going into those communities and helping them out navigate the elections process and letting them know how they're doing this process.

This may seem a little tangential, but the Public Records Act is the subject of an annual special here on Northwest now and I think your experience in the legislature and the state government now at the executive level will allow you to answer this.

COVID and other factors continue to show, in a lot of cases, even, you know, this, that transparency is not the default ethic in many corners of state and local government.

Local governments are paying out big settlement settlements because of violations of the Public Records Act.

So when you take that transparency piece and add it to elections and the need to gain trust and the need for transparency, what, if any, role can the Secretary of State play to help with the enforcement understanding following of the public records and open public meetings, acts?

Wow.

Tom, you did a question that probably take an entire half hour show.

But I will tell you, it's challenging because on one side, you want to you want to be transparent.

Absolutely.

We are a democracy and I believe in the Public Records Act.

On the other thing, we have to protect voters privacy.

Right.

So letting information go out where you can identify perhaps their signature when we close that down is that is not right.

But and and more identical identifying information that allows for, you know, identification threat threat.

Right or not threat.

But that right ID that we don't want that.

So it's a delicate balance.

And also, we don't want a situation where people are using different forms of information collected to find out how an individual has voted.

We certainly do not want that.

That's a big no no.

And so we're constantly trying to ensure that we are transparent, but we protect the voter's privacy.

That is very important.

Last 15 seconds, what don't people know about Steve Hobbs that they should?

Well, in my experience, I have I think it's important to know that I'm the probably the first AP.

Secretary of state, son of an Asian immigrant.

And so and obviously I got two boys in the military, one some special needs.

So thank you.

All right.

A good piece of information there.

Steve Hobbs, thanks so much for coming in Northwest now.

Thank you very much.

The challenger in this race is three term Pierce County Auditor Julie Anderson, who's recognized as an award winning leader in running fair elections and improving the process.

Julie Anderson, thanks for coming in to Northwest now.

You've appeared on this program several times and we always appreciate it.

Let me start with kind of an open ended question here.

Where do you see where do you perceive the real daylight between yourself and your opponent?

Oh, into areas, but primarily experience.

I've been the Pierce County auditor for nearly 13 years now, managing actually conducting hundreds of elections through two presidential cycles, leading an award winning team in some really practical professional programs like elections, document recording, business licensing.

And all of that's really relevant to the Secretary of State's office.

I am on the receiving end of the Secretary of State, the authorizing agency, for a couple of things that auditors do.

So I know how important it is that the secretary have professional experience.

And I've got 40 election administrators, former and current, who agree scaling up to statewide responsibilities.

Intimidated by that?

No.

Excited about it.

Absolutely.

I know what great customer service looks like in the secretary of state's office, how they can and should support counties that are conducting the work.

And I've also got some great ideas for modernizing the office and taking it to the next level.

So it's exciting and I can't wait to work with the employees there.

We were talking a little bit about elections and not only the political courage, but the physical courage, sadly enough, to to be in the position of managing this country's elections.

How do we rebuild?

How do we put out the fire of conspiracy and rebuild confidence in the system, in your estimation?

First, I want to go back and just say that I would say it's physical endurance, not necessarily physical security.

We have not experienced the violence and threats that are reported in some of the swing states around the United States.

And I think a lot of that has to do with the trust that people have in Washington state elections and also good management.

But how do we how do we get to this disinformation, misinformation?

One is we've got to have patience.

That's why I say physical endurance.

Right.

We have to have the patience to answer the same questions repetitively, because although I have no patience for people that are the entrepreneurs who are making money and building notoriety over spreading bad facts, I do have a lot of compassion and patience for regular residents who say, Hmm, that sounds like that could be true.

Or I better check in to that.

On one hand, I'm glad that they're engaged.

I'm glad that they're willing to pick up the phone.

And I've got to respond with patience and answering their questions.

But they've got to be able to approach us first.

So having an open door is, I think, job one.

We certainly have answers to questions.

Yeah.

And I talked to your opponent about this as well.

And I know you've been on big on the educational piece, but it seems and it just gestures at the answer you just gave that really taking a deep dove into the process but in an ex in a approachable way.

Absolutely.

To show all and there are so many layers of back ups.

Double checks fail, full proofs put into the system.

I think if people really took a look at that process and it was broken up into chapters or in such a way, they could they could digest it.

They would see that, well, in this step, we'd check this way.

Those records are retained so we can back to.

If they could see that, I think it would really be helpful.

It is.

And that's why the tours that we conduct in my office are extremely successful and why the political party observers that we train in our office are so well settled with the election results.

And I will say, when people call my first thing or if they come and visit or if I meet them on the campaign trail, is I ask them a series of questions.

How do you think so?

If they have a theory that there's ballot box stuffing, I just ask them to go a little bit deeper.

How do you think that's happening?

Hmm.

How do you think that gets done?

How do you think we counteract that?

And you explore a little deeper and it comes to becomes pretty quick.

You get to the conclusion that they're hearing something from another state that doesn't have a direct application here, but that seeds have been planted, though.

But the first thing to do is to really ask them what they think is happening and to ask some follow up questions.

Why is it so important in your estimation, that the secretary of State's office be nonpartizan?

Well, I don't think it makes any sense whatsoever, especially in today's hyper polarized environment for the umpire that's at home plate, calling balls and strikes to be wearing a team jersey.

I think third graders get that.

And it is true that we had we were really lucky to have Secretary Sam Reed and Secretary Kim Wyman, who had very good reputations and acted with integrity and made nonpartisan decisions.

But I will say one of Secretary Wyman's last acts was to introduce a bill to make the position partizan, because she realized that it was unsustainable to have a secretary of State affiliated with a political party.

It was a major drag on her.

I watched in 2020 where she spent more time answering for the behavior of her political party instead of conducting her job as a secretary of State.

I don't want to bring that drama into the office, and I've always run as a nonpartisan.

And Pearce County voters made my position as county auditor, nonpartisan before I ever stepped into it.

So citizens, in fact, over 50% of the electorate in Washington state have already voted to make their local election administrators nonpartisan.

And it has worked well last election cycle.

I believe you and I even discussed this last time around.

You know, there were certainly some threats to the election system here in Washington state and in local jurisdictions, certain counties where checks and balances were attempted to be swept aside.

Russians were trying to come in to the statewide system.

What are the threats that you still think remain relevant?

And what are your some of your thoughts about how are we doing in terms of counteracting them and what do we need to do to go forward?

Well, we're doing well.

So those threats that you referred to, I want to make sure everybody knows that there was no penetration of any election system or the voter registration or election management system.

Those were all detected through a network of Albert sensors, firewalls and getting good federal and state intelligence.

And we are well-defended.

And that is a job that never stops.

It never stops whether you're a bank, a hospital, a local government or an election administrator.

And you have to stay one step ahead of people that are constantly trying to get in and create mayhem.

But we're we're well-defended.

We rely a lot on our federal partners at Homeland Security, CSA, the ISI, SAC Network, to help us detect intrusions.

What I would do, what I would spend some time really amplifying, though, is we've got election administrators and then we've got county CISOs, cyber and information security officers.

I would make sure that we had more time to cement the relationships between those two at the local level because we've got good information flow and backup from federal to state to county election officials.

But how close is the relationship and how well-funded are the county I.T.

systems that we rely upon?

I have a lot of confidence in our election management and voter registration systems, and I know that county auditors are protecting their tabulation systems.

But what about all just the desktop units that you do use for your day to day work?

So that's a piece you'd want to go in and dove in on.

Oh, absolutely.

I think that we need an inventory of every county.

And what the gaps are in budget and personnel.

And I would work with organizations like the Washington Association of County Officials, as well as other associations to make sure that county government, local government has really good, robust resources for cybersecurity.

You know, I do an annual program on open government, public records, Open Public Meetings Act.

You've been on that program before as an advocate for that.

But I want to hit you here in this context.

You know, unfortunately, hard experience shows us that transparency isn't necessarily the prevailing ethic in state and local governments because they keep paying millions of dollars in fines to requesters who are who are winning cases.

The secretary of state is the state archivist.

There's also the interface with elections and the transparency and the confidence that needs to happen there.

Talk to me a little bit about what might you do or what might your attitude be about promoting open government in Washington state?

In jurisdictions where, like I said, it's clearly not the ethic taxpayers in those jurisdictions are shelling out millions and millions of dollars because we still can't get it right.

Why?

And what can you do about it?

A couple of things.

First of all, I want to help local governments clean their closet.

Many of the instances that we see are people not being able to find and produce the records, not because they have malicious intent or don't want to produce the records, but they can't find them.

Government is producing the highest volume of records that need to be retained of all time with email and digitally native documents.

And they are just proliferating and proliferating.

Without good record management, you can't have good record access.

That was something that the Secretary of State's office used to do a good job at is at least providing training.

I'm going to apply that kind of leadership to make sure that all counties have a good record management system.

So that's one thing.

The other thing is modernizing the our the state archives to make sure that it's able to rapidly ingest and index and make available records that are no longer paper.

They are digitally native complex records that come in a wide variety of formats.

And are we ready for that?

We need to be ready.

You know that I'm a state certified public records officer, and I'll though I don't want to throw anybody under the bus.

My office has never been successfully sued or penalized for failing to produce documents.

And I will say this is another reason that experience matters.

The records that are being requested related to elections are becoming more and more complex.

We've got people who are activists who are requesting the manuals of our tabulation systems so they are getting really detailed about what they want, extracted and delivered.

And I think it really takes experience, caution, but also a spirit of disclosure to make sure that when we're releasing those records, we are not depriving voters of privacy.

Julie Anderson, thanks so much for coming in Northwest now.

Well, that was quick.

I don't bat a thousand hiding my views on this program.

The exception to that sometimes is when I allow a little commentary during the Bottom Line segment here at the end of the show.

So the bottom line, there is no doubt the secretary of state's office should be nonpartisan.

This isn't anything either candidate can really affect by themselves.

But I would hope that whichever wins, they would be advocating for change by enlisting the support of the legislature and the electorate.

The success of this little democratic republic totally relies on confidence, and this is a change whose time has come.

I hope this program got you thinking and talking to watch this program again or to share it with others.

Northwest now can be found on the Web at kbtc.org.

And be sure to follow us on Facebook and Twitter at Northwest Now a streamable podcast of this program is available now under the Northwest Now tab at KB Etsy dot org and on Apple Podcasts by searching Northwest now.

That's going to do it for this edition of Northwest Now until next time.

I'm Tom Layson.

Thanks for watching.