>> Northwest Now is supported in part by viewers like you.

Thank you.

>> Despite vaccine technology's overwhelming and proven track record of success, and the advent of a new disease that wants to choke you to death while you're on a respirator, there are still people out there hesitating, unsure about whether they should get the COVID-19 vaccine.

How is this possible?

How has this modern-day rebellion against newfangled ideas like biomedical science taken such a hold in American culture?

That's part of the discussion next on Northwest Now.

[ Music ] Did you know the Chinese started experimenting with inoculation against disease in the 16th century?

That is how long healers and now high-tech bio scientific teams have been pursuing and perfecting vaccine technology.

The safety and effectiveness of vaccines isn't an opinion or subject to debate, it's a proven fact that has saved millions from all the old diseases that used to cut our lives and the lives of our children short.

For now, indications in both Washington and nationally are that about 40% of the eligible population will not vaccinate.

Because of that, COVID-19 is likely to go from being a pandemic that comes and goes to an endemic disease that we get regular boosters for like perhaps flu shots.

Let's hit the myths right now.

If you've had COVID, you don't need to get vaccinated.

False.

Especially if you're 65 plus.

The vaccines use live coronavirus.

False.

The vaccines alter your DNA.

False.

The vaccines make you infertile.

False.

The science behind the vaccine is questionable because it happened so fast.

False.

The Trump administration cut the red tape, the scientist did not cut corners.

There are dangerous and frequent side effects.

False.

The vaccines carry fetal tissue, microchips, and tracking devices.

False.

There is doubt amongst most scientists and physicians as to whether the vaccines are safe and effective.

False.

Joining us now, our UW associate professor of global health, Dr. Christopher Sanford, King County immunization program director, Libby Page, and Tacoma Pierce County Health Department director, Dr. Anthony Chen.

Welcome all of you to Northwest Now.

Great to have a discussion about a very important topic as we move out of COVID, and that is vaccine hesitancy.

And I want to start with our local public health officials.

Start with you, Dr. Chen.

What are you seeing when it comes to hesitancy?

What is the feedback you're getting and what do you make of it?

>> Well, you know, not everyone's embracing the vaccination with open arms.

And just as we are across the country, we're seeing a significant slowdown in vaccine demand.

You know, I think we had projected originally that we needed about -- to get to 70% coverage, we would need like 21,000 doses a week.

And while we were close to that in April and at times higher than that, I mean, it's just dropped off in May.

So it's a downward trend.

And we are now averaging about 3,600 a day in Pierce County compared to 4,400 a day even two weeks ago.

And so this is a challenge.

But it's all over the place.

I think we have clearly seen in our county that the hotspots where the cases of COVID are have now shifted away from the urban areas and are in the eastern part of our county, the rural areas.

And those are also the very same census tracts that have the lowest vaccine coverage rate.

>> Libby, that's the take from Pierce County.

I wanted to take your temperature up in King County.

What are you seeing and how are you adapting?

>> Yeah, I think we're seeing a very similar as Tacoma, Pierce, the same areas in primarily South King County that have consistently had the highest case rates throughout the pandemic are also the regions of the county with the lowest vaccine coverage rates.

And we're hearing from our community navigators and others who engage with community around conversations about vaccine that there are really a range of factors that influence their interest in getting the COVID vaccine, from fear of side effects to wanting to wait and see if it's safe, and also distrust of government in some communities.

>> Dr. Sanford, you and I have had this discussion many times.

I don't want to make the public health officials talk about a segment of the population and be controversial, so I'm going to lay this on you, because I know you're unafraid of this.

What in the heck is wrong with a country where 40% of the people have doubts about a proven technology like vaccines?

What has happened here and what do you see as being kind of I guess the result of this?

You know, we may not reach herd immunity.

>> There's not a single simple answer to that.

I think it's a combination of a lot of factors.

I think the good news is that the majority of people are embracing it, particularly in the Seattle area.

Not everyone but a majority, fortunately.

But the anti-vaccine opinion is not a monolithic bloc.

As you were alluding to, there's some people who don't think they need it, some people who don't like the government telling them what to do.

And I think we can all relate to that.

There's some people who are afraid of side effects.

There's some people who think it was developed too quickly.

And there's some people who believe nonsense that they hear from neighbors or read on the Internet.

And so really it's a variety of factors, but I don't think we can boil it down just to one cause.

>> That's good.

I think you hit on the major pieces.

And a little later in this conversation, I do want to talk about the media and the role of social media as well.

Dr. Chen, what are your thoughts about strategies to encourage participation?

Right now in the news recently in the past week, Washington state is closing down some of the mass vaccination sites to do mobile sites.

What are some strategies?

What are things you're looking at that you say, oh, that's a good idea, let's do that?

What are you thinking?

>> We've been doing all kinds of things.

I mean, you know, early on in the pandemic, we were very concerned about how racial ethnic communities that, you know, had much higher rates of COVID-19.

And also, you know, many of them historically had reasons to be afraid of the government or afraid of the healthcare system.

And we were very successful in working with those communities.

I mean, we deliver vaccines in their settings, you know, work with those groups.

And now it's a different demographic.

As we've heard from the other panelists, there are lots of different reasons, right.

So now we're just trying to find out how else we can do it.

If you remember, there also was a time where like the elderly were having a hard time getting in because they couldn't access the Internet.

So we put up call centers.

And then now, I mean, just over the weekend, I was in the office, and we had nurses all ready to go in the morning to go to people's homes.

We're doing this in homes.

Some of the pushes that we're moving on now are working with particular sectors like business, right.

Because for a variety of reasons.

Historically, their supporters tend not to be supporters of government, for one thing.

But they also hire a lot of low-income people who are people that we're trying to reach.

I know some of them have been just totally excited to work with us.

The Rainiers, right, they created this vaccinate section.

They have us come to their games to vaccinate.

They have giveaways, things like that.

So certainly there are incentives, but also it's more than that, because we're having conversations with employers about -- like we went out and did a vaccine clinic at a construction worksite.

We originally talked about 400 doses, and they ended up taking out 200 doses.

And I think 30-something people took vaccines, right.

So it might be issues around, do they get a day off, right?

Because they might be afraid they're going to be sore the next day.

But we're really, you know, we're looking at where the needs are both graphically and by sector.

And we're very fortunate, our county executive has come on board.

He's hosting this six-week session for the business community.

We're about to kick one off with the faith community.

You know, getting people together to help us, right.

And we're doing everything we already know what to do.

We need to hear from people who are more connected to these other segments and communities who help us understand, and also help us identify who are the trusted messengers, what are the messages that work, what are the strategies that work in those communities.

>> Interesting.

Dr. Chen Libby mentioned some of the things that have been called carrots, some of the incentives.

You know, some states are rolling out giveaways and free donuts and all kinds of things.

And I've said for a long time, it really should be made into kind of a party where there's music, you know.

It should be a good thing to get vaccinated.

What are some of the strategies that you look at, you say, man, that's not working anymore, so we're doing this?

What do you guys -- what's your mode right now for doing interesting, attractive things for vaccines?

>> Well, you know, you're absolutely right.

So we worked with the county's emergency management, set up a mass vaccination site at the Tacoma Dome.

They brought in food trucks, everything, you know.

They did walk-in, you know.

They went late, in case there are people who worked and all that.

They're all set to deliver two, 3,000 doses a day.

Well, they're only doing 200.

But I think the important thing, it's kind of rapid cycle improvement, right.

We figure out pretty quickly, this is not working.

Mass vaccination is not working anymore.

And we'll still do some, right, or we're going to scale it down a bit.

But now it's like going to places and working with partners, you know, whatever strategies.

And again, what's really important for us is we're doing what we do know.

We need to hear from the community what works.

And, you know, they're coming up with different ideas.

And I know that state-wide, the breweries and the wineries want to work with public health.

And it's like, yeah, sign up Pierce County, we're happy to do that.

>> Right, yeah.

It's very interesting that you're seeing some of these affinity groups come together.

Libby, I wanted to ask you this question as well.

In King County, what are some of the carrots, if you will, that you're thinking about?

Are you doing any incentives or rewards?

Talk to us about your situation.

>> Yeah.

For high-volume sites, we've partnered with For Culture to provide, as you say, a party-like atmosphere, especially for younger adults and youth, to host live music, to provide swag -- buttons that were customized by local artists.

So really making it a positive experience for folks.

And then I think Dr. Chen is exactly right, that meeting people where they are at and planning in partnership with community is really going to be the key moving forward.

We're working with both community and faith-based organizations.

We've also found that it's really helpful to host Q&A forums in advance of hosting a vaccine clinic, to give people an opportunity to ask questions and to address their concerns.

And then back to the incentives, we're exploring things like, for example, home care agencies have provided employees with cash bonuses.

Local businesses are offering free donuts, ice cream, beer, gift cards for vaccination.

And Safeway is offering 10% off of all their purchases, and that's happening across the state.

>> Dr. Sanford, you're our international vaccination expert.

You do a lot of work in other countries.

You're in Turkey right now, we should disclose why you're doing this.

You're a local guy, you're in the Northwest, but you're in Turkey.

I want to ask you to unmute your mic and answer this question for me, which is: Why is herd immunity so important?

Why do we need to get to that 70%, not only domestically but internationally, too, so we don't go from pandemic to endemic?

I'm wondering if you can hit some of those areas?

>> Right.

Well, just to jump ahead to something which is not great news, this may be with us for the duration.

And so already there is discussion of whether or not an annual equivalent of a flu shot is going to be necessary for coronavirus.

So already this to some large extent is out of the bag and may be with us for a very long duration.

The important part about getting to herd immunity is that you don't have to get vaccines or immunity in 100% of people, but if you can hit a certain threshold of people who are not susceptible to infection, a given infectious disease will not propagate.

And it's different for every organism.

Measles, a certain percentage.

Coronavirus, a certain percentage.

But there are some people who can never be vaccinated because they're too young, it hasn't been approved for them, or they are pregnant -- well, I guess pregnant people can receive it.

But people who are immunocompromised or have other illnesses or contraindications to receiving it.

And this is one thing that comes up with young people.

Some young people think, oh, I'm not going to get very sick if I get it, so it's not important that I get the vaccine.

But, in fact, they could get a minor illness but then pass on something to an elderly person who would -- it could be a life-threatening infection.

And so we really need to get to a certain level of people who are immune, preferably by vaccination but also possibly by infection, so that when there is an infection in the community, it can't spread like a wildfire.

Once we hit herd immunity, if there's one infection, there's not enough susceptible people to pass it along to.

>> I want to talk to you all, too, about the media.

And I want to break this into two parts and give each one of you a chance on this.

First I want to talk about the mainstream local media.

In the Northwest, that's going to be your Kings, KIROs, KOMOs, Q13s, the News Tribune, the Seattle Times, the local media, professional journalists with a stake in the community.

Dr. Chen, I want to start with you.

Do you feel the local media has done a good job getting the facts out and helping you help the rest of us beat COVID?

>> I think they have.

I think there's been a lot of interest in it.

I mean, the funny part of it is, I can go places now and total strangers will know who I am because I've been interviewed so much.

And I'm sure, you know, Jeff Duchin up in King County, same thing happens to him, you know.

I think they've done a really good job in getting that out.

What I worry about, again, is, you know, what are the networks that people normally communicate through.

And that's the hard part for us is trying to get into those.

But we've seen when our community partners choose to support us in that and introduce us to their networks and message through the networks, that's been very effective.

>> Libby, your take on -- again, we're not going to jump to social media yet, we'll get there -- but the local stakeholder mainstream media groups, have they been effective in your mind getting the right messages out and helping you as you've gone through this?

>> Yeah.

I agree with Dr. Chen that, you know, all along we've said that the public really needs clear and consistent messaging that's also accessible.

And local media has done an excellent job of that in helping us disseminate information, covering weekly updates by our health officers.

>> Okay, sounds good.

And Dr. Sanford, I know you observe local media as well here in Western Washington and possibly even globally.

And again, right now before we jump on social media, what's your take on the mainstream media, what you might call the responsible media or the accountable media, how have they done in your mind?

>> I think the responsible media has been responsible.

I would like to disagree, just to be interesting.

But I read the Seattle Times.

I watch the local news.

And I think day after day, they've been on-message.

They're quoting the CDC.

They're quoting Dr. Fauci.

They're quoting, at the county level, the directors of health.

And I've been very happy at the level of scientific accuracy that I've seen in mainstream news.

>> All right, now I'm going to give all three of you a chance for this one, social media.

Do you believe, Dr. Chen, that it's been problematic, that it's been a vector for bad information, and that the what you might characterize as the non-mainstream media -- homemade outlets or cable channels that are devoted, you know, exclusively to one view or the other -- how have they helped or hurt in your view?

>> Well, I think, you know, they have, as you said, both helped and hurt, right.

I mean, just look at my Facebook, you know.

But then remember, Facebook is your friends, right.

But you can see that there are people who are really, you know, being very positive about the whole thing and, you know, helping people understand that it's important to do whatever public health is telling them to do.

I know I do have some friends who don't have that view.

And you can see, they get very vitriolic.

And it's cringe worthy at times.

You know, these are people that you consider your friends.

And I just can't imagine what the people who aren't my friends.

But I think we learn, for example, the last significant measle outbreak we had down in Clark County, it was around the, you know, church community, you know, Eastern European.

And what was fascinating was there were Russian hackers involved, right.

I mean, there's this whole thing about Ukraine and Russia, and they had fake social media, very sophisticated.

But social media would link people to fake TV stations that had fake TV shows and they were spewing all this anti-vaccination work.

And my guess is partly because Russia and Ukraine are at war.

So, you know, however you can undermine the society and create doubt, and, you know, whatever.

I mean, it can be -- I mean, it boggles me how sophisticated some of this can get.

But at the same time, also hearing that sometimes these people on social media -- they don't care about the issue, but they get paid per click, right.

And so you have people in these obscure countries who are just, you know, young hackers or people who are good at setting up websites.

And they set up these things and they're cutting and pasting junk, just so people come to their website.

>> Libby, I realize this is a big question but I want to give you a chance on that one, too.

Social media, helping or hurting in this crisis?

>> Yeah, I would agree that it's a combination, though I think that it's a forum that is rife with misinformation.

And I think it's really challenging for people who say that they want to do -- when people say, I want to do my own research, I always get a little bit concerned because I think, well, how do you know what's credible information versus not?

And how are you doing your own research; what does that mean?

And so I think that that is a bit concerning, and I think it's something that public health continues to struggle with, is how do we counter the misinformation that spreads so rapidly in social media?

>> And Dr. Sanford, you and I have done a couple of programs specifically on that topic, and I just want to give you a chance as well.

Your observations of social media and some of the off-brand media that is infiltrated social media and the role it's played in possibly extending COVID into becoming an endemic disease?

>> Well, with social media as with the Internet, there's no editor.

Which, you know, is wonderfully liberal and democratic.

Everyone can throw their opinion out there.

But the problem is you don't know if a given post is by a PhD in biochemistry or by somebody with schizophrenia.

You know, they can both look very legitimate.

And as you were saying, Libby, when people do their own research, you don't know where they're going to.

It's frustrating.

You know, people will show me "scientific articles," but I look at it and it's not a real medical thing.

But, you know, as a physician, I've been trained in sifting data and evaluating evidence.

And lay people have not and I think have trouble telling fakery from authentic medicine.

So indeed, there is a heck of a lot of misinformation flying around out there.

>> Last couple of minutes, I want to give each one of you a chance for this is, too, while you've got, you know, our audience watching this on KBTC Public Television.

We'll start with you, Dr. Chen.

You've gestured at this a couple times but I want to give you another chance at it.

Where can people go to get more information about getting a vaccine?

And what do you need from people to help you get vaccine out there?

>> I think, you know, in terms of where they can get vaccine, they certainly can come to our website.

For example, the Pierce County Department of Emergency Management has a website as well.

There are vaccine locations all over the place, all kinds of settings.

And we are also working through community groups.

So oftentimes they're not necessarily publicly announced, but that they're announced through their organization.

Or with businesses, it's announced through their business.

And I'm sorry, what was the second question?

>> What you need from people to help you?

Those who want to come alongside you or be helpers, can they get active on social media?

Should they be taking this information to their business and say, hey, why don't we have a clinic?

I'm just wondering what some of your ideas are for people who want to get together with vaccine.

>> So, Tom, I just want to point out something which is often misunderstood: the difference between social media and social marketing.

We are trying to do social marketing, okay.

So we are trying to -- just like business is the market for capitalists, you know, for profit reasons, we are trying to market for a social cause here and a health cause.

And we're trying to shift behaviors, right.

And this is what I said earlier about we really need help identifying who are the trusted messengers, what are the proper messages, what are the right strategies and communications and networks, right?

Because I don't care it's done through a formal social network or, you know, whatever, if a faith community, for example, has -- remember in the old days, they would mail out newsletters?

Or, you know, volunteers would call members of the congregation, check-in on them.

If that's the social network that works for that community, we need them to help us access that.

And the trusted messenger doesn't have to be the leader, it could be just someone in the community.

It could be a football coach.

It could be just someone who everyone turns to when there's a question, right.

So that's what's really important, help us identify who the trusted messengers are, what the messages should be, what the strategy should be, what are the networks we need to work with.

We're happy to support that whatever way we can.

The easiest thing for us to do is to bring a vaccine clinic out there.

The other things I mentioned are very hard for us to do.

>> Libby, same question for you.

It is a communications job at the end of the day.

Where can people go for King County to find resources, to find a vaccine?

And what do you need from people who want to help?

What are some of your ideas?

>> Yeah, thank you, Tom.

I think going to our King County Public Health website.

We're posting our hours of operation for our high-volume sites both sponsored and operated by Public Health and our King County Partnership partners, as well as community vaccine events.

We've got a calendar posted, and every time we schedule a new event, it's going to be on that calendar.

In terms of communication, I would say that we're really focusing our efforts right now on testimonials from a broad spectrum of people who've received vaccine, including those who had an adverse reaction.

I just heard from a colleague who had an unusual reaction to vaccine and still chose to post about it, because she felt really strongly that if she had such a reaction to the vaccine, she can only imagine what her reaction would have been to actually getting COVID disease.

And she felt like it was important to share that with people in her social network.

So I would just encourage people, if you've had the vaccine, post on your Facebook and Instagram.

We want to hear about it.

>> Yeah.

And I think some of the most powerful testimony has come from people who say, I was an anti-vax person, I didn't believe it was real.

And they ended up getting it and they come back and say, oh my gosh, what have I been through.

Those are some really compelling stories, too.

Last 30 seconds, Dr. Sanford, if people want to find out more about vaccines and more about research and become more conversant in this, what are some of your ideas there?

>> Here in King County, I'm most familiar with the University of Washington network.

And we have plenty of vaccine.

It's not hard to get into a vaccine clinic now.

We're getting people in very quickly after they contact us.

In terms of what to do, there's a lot of places that are accepting volunteers now.

And I would continue to talk with people.

I wouldn't assume your neighbor is a villain if he or she won't get the vaccine.

I would just say, let's continue to talk, let's share ideas, let me tell you what happened to me, and realize that most people are of good will.

>> Great conversation.

All three of you heavy hitters in this move to get vaccines rolled out to the public.

I appreciate your time and thanks for coming to Northwest Now.

>> Thank you, Tom.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> Right to my bottom line tonight.

The US is approaching 600,000 dead.

And if you're in the media and spreading lies and sowing doubt or trolling on social media spreading conspiracy theories and anti-vax falsehoods, or a person in authority attacking valid science, you own a piece of that number, 600,000.

When you look back at who you were and what you said during this crisis, be honest and ask yourself if you were on the right side of history and if you were one of the helpers.

I hope you can answer that with a yes.

I also hope this program got you thinking and talking.

To watch this program again or to share it with others, as always, Northwest Now can be found on the web at KBTC.org.

And be sure to follow us on Twitter at Northwest Now.

Thanks for taking a closer look on this edition of Northwest Now.

Until next time, I'm Tom Layson, thanks for watching.

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