- [Narrator] Funding for this edition of One-On-One with Steve Adubato has been provided by The New Jersey Education Association.

NJ Best, New Jersey’s five-two-nine college savings plan.

Holy Name.

New Jersey Institute of Technology.

NJIT makes industry ready professionals in all STEM fields.

PNC Foundation.

New Jersey Sharing Network.

PSEG Foundation.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Working for a more a healthier, more equitable New Jersey.

And by NJM Insurance Group.

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- This is One-On-One.

- I'm an equal American just like you are.

- The way we change Presidents in this country is by voting.

- A quartet is already a jawn, it’s just The New Jawn.

- January 6th was not some sort of violent, crazy outlier.

- I don't care how good you are or how good you think you are, there is always something to learn.

- I mean what other country sends comedians over to embedded military to make them feel better.

- People call me 'cause they feel nobody's paying attention.

-_ It’s not all about memorizing and getting information, it’s what you do with that information.

- (slowly) Start talking right now.

- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) Hi everyone, Steve Adubato, with my co-anchor and colleague, Jacqui Tricarico.

These interviews you're about to see come from Atlantic City, the New Jersey Education Association, their annual convention.

They did not simply have educators, teachers there, which would've been great just as it is, but we also talked to other folks, and you in this interview, talked to Ani DiFranco, who is a very, she's not just a talented artist, but she was committed, and is committed to the field of education.

How so?

Tee this up.

- Yeah, in her own way she's like you said, she's a Grammy winner, singer, songwriter, has really made a name for herself for many, many years now, but she decided during the pandemic, actually, to shift gears a little bit and go into writing a children's book.

And the book that I get to speak with her about is called "The Knowing."

A beautiful story really trying to delve into the fact that we could have so many adjectives to describe us, especially young kids, if you're tall or short, your hair's blonde, are you kind?

All these different adjectives to describe you, but what is the knowing?

Who are you deep down inside?

And she explains that a little bit more eloquently and in depth during my conversation with her.

And the book is just, it's a really beautifully illustrated book for children that sends an important message.

- Let me ask you this, Jacqui, 'cause Ani DiFranco released more than 20 albums, as Jacqui said, award-winning musician and artist.

For you doing an interview like this with someone who you obviously knew of her beforehand, and then you get to sit across from her in Atlantic City and have this conversation with her about something that her music and her art is a piece of it, but it's this other part of her life.

What was that like for you to do that interview?

- It was really incredible because I went into that interview thinking maybe I could do, like, eight to 10 minutes with her.

And you'll see that went a lot longer.

So many aspects of her career and her life that we got to talk about, especially when it comes to her fight for equality for so many, especially females, women in this country, and other people like the LGBTQ+ community, too.

She's been in that fight for a long time and done a lot of amazing things in that regard.

So we talk a little bit about that, too, but I didn't even get to talk to her about, because this just was released, this is news right now, that just came out about last week, actually.

We're talking right now, you and I, in December.

She is making her Broadway debut in February this year, in a really well acclaimed Broadway show, "Hadestown."

- "Hadestown" right?

So she's in that?

- Yeah, yeah, that has eight Tony Awards already.

And her friend has created and directs that Broadway play.

So she's gonna be in that, and making her Broadway debut in February.

- That's so interesting.

Before we go to the interview that Jacqui did, and P.S.

just so folks know, Jacqui did many of the interviews from the convention and they're compelling, they're powerful, and she has her own way of connecting with people that's a lot more effective than mine in a lot of cases, but that being said, Jacqui, I wanna try this.

Ani DiFranco is an artist, an entertainer, a musician.

Have you heard people say about basketball players, and Jacqui played basketball back in the day, you actually did in high school, right?

Shut up and dribble.

Shut up and play your music.

You know, just don't get involved in things outside of your art form.

That doesn't fly, does it?

The problems we face are too significant.

- Yeah, especially not with Ani DiFranco.

And I think if she heard that, she'd be real angry about that one because she uses her voice to spread her message.

And like I had mentioned, it's really equality for all and especially raising the bar in terms of making sure that women have equal rights, equal pay, things of that nature.

She's been fighting that fight for a long time, and she uses her platform for good and in really amazing ways.

And she continues to do that.

And now, like I had mentioned in this new way in children's books.

We need more people, who especially have these bigger platforms to spread kindness, love, and compassion and awareness like that it's really important.

And you'll hear more from Ani and her career, and kinda where she is right now in this space.

Having her career for so many years now where it's led her, the path where it's led her today.

- This is Jacqui Tricarico going one-on-one with the great Ani DiFranco.

Let's check it out.

(upbeat music) - Hi, I am Jacqui Tricarico on location at the NJEA Convention here in Atlantic City, and I am so pleased to be joined by Ani DiFranco, feminist icon, Grammy award-winning, singer songwriter, and writer of this beautiful children's book, "The Knowing," new passion project for you that just came out.

And you just finished up a keynote address here at the NJEA Convention.

Tell us a little bit about that and what you are hoping the educators took away from that conversation today.

- [Ani] I mean, if I can inspire or affirm our educators in any way, I've done a good day's work.

They are unsung heroes, you know?

I mean, they’re just... And the cool thing about making a children's book is, this is not the first educators conference now that I've been invited to, so.

- That's wonderful.

- Yeah I really feel like it's a blessing for me to, you know, be in a gathering of soldiers who are just out there fighting the good fight, you know, not necessarily getting the level of applause that I do in my, you know, wing of the struggle, you know?

- Yeah.

And you've been fighting the good fight for a very long time now with your activism, really looking at social rights, feminist icon, like I said, but delving into a lot of different issues that so many are facing and using your platform and your songs, your songwriting to address so much of that.

How did that transition into then thinking about writing this children's book?

Where did that idea come from for you?

Because I'll let you describe, what the children's book is about, but I feel like it pulls from really your past experiences as well and trying to unleash and look deeper into the child and the knowing of what a child has.

- Well I'll tell you, a lot of my favorite gigs along the way, I've been performing music for 30 years or something crazy, and a lot of the best moments are in front of kids.

Back in the day, my touring was kind of more squirrely and I would be at my cousin's high school class 'cause she said, you know, come into my class or I'm at this camp because I know somebody or I'm here or there.

Just an audience of young like, kids is the best.

- They're just so much more open.

- They're so open, they're so discerning.

You can't fake it in front of a kid.

They're picking up deeply, you know, on where you're coming from, your energy and I find those the best, the best audiences.

But anyway, flash forward to making a children's book which comes 30 years into playing music, I wrote a memoir a few years ago, - [Jacqui] Yes.

- That came out on Viking Penguin.

And when it was released, the young reader division of my publisher contacted me and said, "If you ever thought about making a children's book, here's my number."

(Jacqui chuckling) And then the pandemic hit and I can't do my regularly scheduled drive around play gigs.

No shows to be played for years.

So suddenly, like many people, I was scrambling to think of other ways to support my family.

And it's like, brring, I think now's the time.

- Dive into this unknown territory a little bit.

And you've been writing songs for so long, how is that different than writing a children's book?

- Yeah, right.

- Different process.

- I mean that's a perfect way to look at it.

Like it was an opportunity to do something new.

Like I just couldn't continue doing what I'm known to do and what I gotta (running sounds), so it was an opportunity to do something very different.

The writing of this book was actually really hard for me.

Like I suddenly noticed that my songwriting has a lot to do, it's very adult in the sense that I'm often playing with stereotypes or conventions.

That's not the world of children.

- Yeah.

- Thankfully.

- Thankfully, they're not open to that yet.

That's something that comes later, unfortunately.

- Right.

It's not all been inputted.

- The influence, yes.

- And I do a lot of double entendre and, - Metaphors.

- I turn cliches on their head.

I use all these devices regularly.

Apparently, didn't realize it until this project in my writing that just have no bearing on the world of children.

I had to express myself in a totally different way.

- What did that do for you as an artist?

- I mean, it was really challenging.

I hope I succeeded to some degree and yeah, it's not all about, you know, pushing back against conventions or twisting cliches or, you know, using unconventional uses of language.

It's just about saying very directly, trying to make poetry that is much more direct and not using all these kind of tricks of adult culture and reference and, you know, messing with that whole realm.

- And I do love the meaning behind this book.

In your own words, describe that for us because it's looking at you, you know, we have so many labels, labels that we give ourselves, labels that society gives us, and stripping all that away and what's really underneath.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Describe that in your own words of what the meaning is, behind the knowing.

- Yeah well, I guess I wanted to make sort of a yes and book about identity.

- A theme that's been in your life for a long time.

- Identity politics can be a very liberating force.

It can help you to discover yourself and where you're from and what you're made of and who your community is.

And it's very important to become that and know it, especially if you are not the dominant culture or community.

And so, you know, inclusion can't happen without identity and knowing it and giving voice to it first, right?

So we are building slowly, painfully, a more inclusive society and it's predicated on knowing and coming to terms with the diversity of identity.

Yes, and it's not all that we are, you know?

- Right.

No matter how many ways you've been described or defined as you say, it often comes from outside yourself.

Sometimes it comes from within yourself.

You are more than that.

You are more than the sum total of all those adjectives.

I think we're too quick, a lot of times, especially with young people.

If you make a mistake and you harm someone, you're a bad kid and if you freeze and emote, you're a shy kid and you're a smart kid and you're a pretty kid and you're a... - [Jacqui] Right, too many.

- We turn every thing into an identity.

- Yeah, it's a beautiful message.

And the artwork in this, the painting, watercolor painting, talk about the painter who you had to collaborate with you on.

- Yeah Julia Matthew, she's from Toronto.

Her family is Indian descent so she brought a whole other cultural element into the book picture.

- I saw that throughout, mhm.

Yeah, which I love because it just feels right to have even more diversity of identity represented in this book that's about, you know, we could be so different and from different sides of the world and have different cultures that inform the way we think and see and live but beneath all of that, we are one.

- And diversity, equity, inclusion, identity, our themes that we see here at the NJEA convention and within our educators as well.

And something that we see in books that help us learn about so many, but book banning has become such a hot button issue.

When did it get so complicated?

And why do you think that is?

- Well... - Loaded question, I know, but - Yeah I mean, book banning is classic authoritarianism.

It's classic fascism and I think it came in a big way into this country in 2016, and I think that it's contagious.

That energy and that political, I mean, for me, I'm a pretty notorious feminist as you mentioned.

You know, and for me, book banning and the sort of authoritarian culture that that is a part and parcel of is the end game of patriarchy.

It's patriarchy in its most extreme, you know?

And so, I mean, I think that an essential part of undoing this political regression and reinvigorating our democracy is about really coming to terms with patriarchy, going back to the source of, you know, the first wrong turn.

You know, I was so encouraged by seeing a huge march that happened with Palestinian women and Israeli women.

You know, this was prior to the recent escalation but women coming together across very fraught lines, you know, there are just so many, very tense battle lines.

- An us versus them type of situation.

- Us versus them, within our country in the whole world.

And deep histories and things to come to terms with and contend with behind it all.

But women crossing those lines and joining hands and saying, we need to find a way towards non-violence, towards restorative justice and we need to do it with women at the table.

That's the only way we can get outta here is to have both men and women at the design table starting now.

- Right, we've seen it happening a little bit but still not enough.

And I know you've spoken specifically too, when it comes to the whole us versus them type of situation, not making it that so much anymore, but being open to your opponent, as you've said in the past, being open to other people's ideas.

Not saying that you have to believe them, but being open to understanding the opposite view of your own can only actually bring us all closer together, even if we have different viewpoints.

And I think that's such a beautiful message that you've been sharing in this clash that it feels like we've been seeing, especially as people take their political ideas and make that part of their full identity and just pushing those boundaries.

- Yeah.

Yeah really be patient with each other, being compassionate with each other.

You know, especially, you know, in this, there are so many political fronts in which people, in our own families, in our own communities are battling each other.

And I was just saying to a friend the other night, I think every time we demonize each other and start battling our own families in our communities, the bots and the trolls have won.

- [Jacqui] Yes.

Yep.

- We have to allow each other to make mistakes, not accept them, not roll over, but, you know, all of these processes of non-violent communication and restorative justice.

And we don't have to invent the wheel.

They've all been tried, trust and vetted, and there are things we can turn to, to find solutions and constructive dialogue.

- Yeah and that messaging is reflected, I'm pretty sure, in your newest album, "Revolutionary Love."

Talk a little bit about that album and how that's been different that what we've seen in the past from you.

- Yeah well that song in particular, and, you know, I think there's just a lot of themes of putting love in the forefront of our social movements and of our interactions and of our, you know, revolutionary love is a thing we do in community.

It's a thing where we all play a different role based on your circumstance and your place and your life and your journey.

And I feel that after decades of becoming myself and making myself strong and whole and building community and being a part of the process of having the community become more strong and more whole, I'm ready to, you know, do that third tenant which is to face my opponent with love and compassion and try to stay curious, try to ask more questions than make assumptions.

Try to judge as little as possible and listen as much as possible, try to tend the wound in another person that might be behind their harmful words or actions, while confronting the harmful words and actions, you know, all of these things are, again, you know, the sort of science of non-violence that we can turn to.

So many people have developed it and there are many places we can turn to learn it and to learn how to employ it.

- Something that we should all strive for, but it takes practice and it takes willingness to open up, right?

- Every day.

I'm still getting there.

Every day with my marriage and the government and with everything.

- Yes, and all the things.

Yeah.

- All the things.

And that love and compassion and empathy, how important is that?

Do you see that in our classrooms today amongst students, amongst each other, educators, educator to educator?

That's just such an important part of our education system in America.

- Absolutely.

I think educators and classrooms are on the forefront of this, what I hope is a movement away from punitive justice towards restorative justice, which centers healing and dialogue.

You see this much more in the schools, you know, this sort of evolution to a new concept of discipline and conflict resolution than you do in the adult world at large, the criminal justice system.

So I really feel that our educators are showing us the way, they are paving the way that I hope will take hold in the greater society.

- Right, as that generation grows up and becomes those people in legislation in, you know, at the table of so many important discussions and conversations.

You got your feet wet with this first beautiful children's book, "The Knowing."

You're working on a second one though, right?

Yeah.

- That's really exciting.

- You got the inside scoop.

- I did, I did.

(laughs) When can we expect to see that come out?

- I believe it's either summer or fall of 24.

- Wonderful.

So this is something that you're feeling really passionate about, the children's stuff.

- Yeah.

- That's great.

- I mean it's really cool.

I mean again like, trying to make art and connect with young people is really challenging and really especially cool.

And this new book that we're working on is about voting, another thing I'm really passionate about.

- Wonderful.

- And I don't think understanding our roles as citizens and what it looks like and what you gotta do and how you gotta show up for each other to make your society not just better, but to make sure it doesn't implode.

- And making sure our kids know that.

- Making sure our democracy lives to see another day.

Right, and our kids know that important right to vote, something that women were not privy to for such a long period of time, - Exactly.

- And how important it is that we have that right, - Exactly.

- To have our voices be heard in whatever way that is.

- Essential.

- Yeah.

- Essential in this country, in this world.

So, yeah.

And it's not automatic that kids should know about all this.

So yeah, just trying to reach out, you know, and give parents a tool to talk with their kids about it and open up that whole aspect of life.

- That's wonderful, and we can't wait to see that second children's book come out.

Loving this one, "The Knowing."

People can pick this up now.

Thank you so much for taking your time to speak with us today at the NJEA Convention.

We really appreciate it.

- Thank you.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Celebrating 30 years in public broadcasting.

Funding has been provided by The New Jersey Education Association.

NJ Best, New Jersey’s five-two-nine college savings plan.

Holy Name.

New Jersey Institute of Technology.

PNC Foundation.

New Jersey Sharing Network.

PSEG Foundation.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

And by NJM Insurance Group.

Promotional support provided by NJ.Com.

And by ROI-NJ.

- (Narrator) New Jersey is home to the best public schools in the nation, and that didn't happen by accident.

It's the result of parents, educators and communities working together year after year to give our students a world class education.

No matter the challenge, because parents and educators know that with a shared commitment to our public schools, our children can learn, grow and thrive.

And together, we can keep New Jersey's public schools the best in the nation.