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- This is One-On-One.

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(upbeat music) - Hi everyone, Steve Adubato.

The entire program dedicated to an important topic, fascism, not just around the world, but in the United States of America.

Jason Stanley is the author of "Erasing History: How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the Future," and also a professor of philosophy at Yale University.

Good to see you professor.

- Good to see you too.

Great to be in conversation with you after hearing about you for quite some time.

- Well, I've been fascinated by this book for months now.

Question: we're doing this program right before the presidential election of 2024.

Don't know who's gonna win.

Don't know what the transition's gonna be.

We hope and pray that it's peaceful no matter who wins: who knows?

Question: Define fascism for us, because it's been used in political discourse an awful lot these days.

And my sense is, and you're the scholar, misused, please.

- Yeah, I don't think it's being misused now.

I think finally, at long last, people are recognizing Trumpism, the social and political movement, as a fascist, social, and political movement, perfectly ordinary occurrence in 20th- and and 21st-century political life.

- Before you go any further, professor, further and further, Democrats have been accused of fascism by folks on the hard right.

So I don't know what we mean by used and misused, but I'm hearing it going, "Wow, that word's being used a lot."

What the heck does it mean?

Please, I apologize for interrupting.

- No, absolutely, absolutely.

Any political word is gonna be used as a weapon against the other group.

And then spit back.

So fascism is a cult of the leader who promises national restoration in the face of supposed humiliation by immigration, by liberals, by Marxists, by LGBTQ people who threaten masculinity, by feminism.

They say the nation has been placed at risk, an existential risk, and its character is about to be destroyed unless immigration is stopped, unless feminism is stopped, unless the traditional dominant groups start to having more babies.

That's 20th century fascism, ideologically speaking.

That's like "Mein Kampf."

- Go back: growing up and being a student of history, as clearly not a scholar in the field, my grandparents came from Italy, and we'll talk about Mussolini a lot.

And Mussolini, Benito Mussolini was a dictator.

Was he a fascist, A; and B, is that a different kind of fascism/Hitler fascism, versus today?

Please, professor.

- Great.

Fascism originates as a term to describe Mussolini and his followers.

so sort of paradigmatically.

But German fascism and Italian fascism are quite different in a lot of ways.

And so the scholarly dispute, there's a big scholarly question about whether those are, you know, they're so different from each other, and so like the relation of business to government is different in those two cases.

Hitler kind of let the super wealthy do what they wanted as long as they supported him.

But what we're seeing is something closer to German fascism, because the focus on immigration, for instance, the focus on great replacement theory.

Racism was central to Mussolini's project, hence the invasion of Ethiopia, colonialism to dominate Africa.

But Hitler is absolutely just completely preoccupied by immigration.

He's preoccupied by the idea that Vienna, second chapter of "Mein Kampf," is crime-ridden, filled with immigrants, filled with decadence; and the real, genuine people live in the country, and cities are just dens of violence and immigration.

And he's obsessed with this idea that sounds, not so now, that Jews betrayed Germany in World War I, with the intention of bringing in Black soldiers through the French-occupying army to dilute, poison the blood, if you will, of German women.

So the idea is that, you know, in German fascism, immigration, as it were, poisoning the blood of the nation.

And that there are these people who are bringing in these nonwhites to destroy the country.

And so Hitler said, you know, those are like the Social Democrats, those are the liberals, but behind them are the Jews.

- Let me try this: I want to get to American history, but I do need to do this.

Vladimir Putin and fascism.

Please.

- Yeah, so Putin is in many senses a classical fascist, you know, cult of the leader.

Russia is just oriented around Putin.

It's a personalist rule.

He represents himself as the Nazis did, as protecting traditional Christian values.

Putin probably himself is not, you know, he's like probably one of the world's richest men.

And then, you know, obviously, he's most obsessed with himself.

But he represents himself as the protector of traditional Christian values against LGBTQ people, or as he calls it, parent one and parent two ideology.

So in the case of Putin, because there are no immigrants to Russia, let's face it, it's LGBTQ people who are the major target.

I think that's gonna be the through line of all fascist movements.

- Is the LGBTQ movement is the primary target of fascism?

- It's always been one of the primary targets.

- Does that include education?

Because in your book, you talk extensively about those with fascist leanings, those who believe in, whether they call themselves fascist or not is another story, they target schools, they target curriculum, they target a whole range of subjects being taught in schools that they argue, what?

Finish it.

- That they argue bring decadence, threaten the family, shed aspersions on the dominant group and they're great.

-The thing is, it's such a classic structure that we face, just with, you know, the LGBTQ aspect of it is the same.

You know, rigid gender roles were central to the Nazis.

One of their first book burnings was of the Institute for Sexual Science, which was the largest repository of photographs of gender variability in the world, and LGBTQ literature.

So that was one of the targets of the first big book burning was that, and a couple of other collections.

- So bringing it back home here, are we now talking about critical race theory, transgender-related curricula?

Help us on this, professor.

Make some sense of this.

- Both of those are classic.

In the case of the Nazis, they focused on Jewish authors.

Here we're focusing on Toni Morrison.

Here we're focusing on, of course, our national minority, our Black American.

So we're we're calling Toni Morrison's work obscene and decadent.

We're calling the 1619 Project un-American, just like Jewish literature was represented as un-German or anti-German.

So there the perspectives of, here the perspectives of Black Americans are being labeled, Toni Morrison's work is being labeled as obscene.

So that's very similar to Nazi Germany, right?

The Nazis had a big art museum of obscene and decadent art and of Jewish art.

And we're seeing that with literature of Black authors, Black perspectives and Black histories.

- Here in the United States.

- Absolutely.

- So along those lines, you've argued that there's a direct connection between fascism and certain Christian white men.

Are you saying that only Christian white men get... You're shaking your head.

I'll let you make the case.

- Fascism can be based around any dominant group.

So you can have Jewish fascists.

You can have Hindu fascists.

India is, in fact, I think we see that there are both of these things.

Whatever you think, there's certainly a Jewish fascist group in Israel, Babel, how big it is.

But the settler movement.

Hindu fascism is based on Hindu nationalism.

- Do you have to be in the majority population?

- Yeah.

- Do you have to be in power?

- Great question.

Well, fascism, it's typical in literature to divide.

No, you don't have to be in power.

It's typical to divide fascism into fascism as a movement when it's seeking to gain power, and fascism in power.

And they look very different.

Fascism, when it's seeking, well, I think you meant, actually- - I'll give you an example.

I'll give you an example.

So someone says, well, Louis Farrakhan, particularly when Farrakhan was very prominent in arguing for not just for a whole range of things, and you can research Farrakhan, but it was anti-Jewish, some of his rhetoric, anti-Semitism, a lot of anti-Semitic language.

It was separating people and it was, many believed, you can choose to believe what you want, it was anti-white and separating.

Is that not fascism because Farrakhan is African American, and that's not the dominant culture in the United States?

- Okay, so Farrakhan is also partially anti-LGBTQ.

- Yes.

So extremely, so there's a lot of overlap here between ultranationalism of different sorts.

And one could turn into another.

But it is not fascism because it's not the dominant group.

The dominant, the idea, the center of fascism is great replacement theory.

Great replacement theory is we're gonna be replaced.

- We meaning white Christian men.

- Whatever the dominant group: Hindus, Jews, white Christians, we're gonna be replaced.

So Hitler is saying we're gonna be replaced.

People are opening the borders, letting non-whites in.

They're gonna replace the Aryan.

So obviously that's not going on with Farrakhan.

- Yeah.

- Let me try this.

Again, it's risky only in the sense that, well, no, the election's the election.

We're taping this at the end of October.

We hope and pray that it's a fair election, it's a peaceful transition, whoever wins, wins, and our country moves forward.

January 6th, 2021 speaks for itself.

We hope and pray that's not the case.

Now, here's the question.

In reading your book, the connection between Trump and fascism.

I mean, you see a connection.

- He's a fascist.

- Yeah, but you're calling him... Respectfully, Professor, to call him... Are you calling him a name or describing what you think his philosophy?

Go ahead, please.

- I'm describing what his philosophy is.

He's- - Describe it.

- He's xenophobic.

I think we should talk about the movement.

And what you have to understand about when fascism wins, it only wins when lots of people who would never consider themselves fascists vote for it.

They think, "That party is gonna get it done for us," so- - That party or that person?

Because there are a whole range of Republicans who are not part of what you're talking about.

Do you mean the MAGA movement?

Trump?

'Cause it's not party.

It's not D's and R's.

At least not to me.

- The MAGA movement.

- Go ahead, Professor.

- The MAGA movement.

- Go ahead.

- The MAGA movement.

I meant by party, the MAGA movement.

There's plenty of Republicans who are anti-fascist.

I mean, John McCain was an anti-fascist hero.

- And Liz Chaney, the list goes on.

- Liz Cheney.

- Chris Christie in Jersey.

- The list goes on.

- Keep going.

Keep going.

- Exactly, so we've got, so remember, fascism is a cult of the leader.

So when you have a party or a part of a party, whatever we wanna call MAGA Republicanism, let's call that a party.

That is based around Trump.

It's a personalist cult around Trump.

And it's saying, but it brings with it a number of different people with agendas like Project 2025.

So Trump is going to enable those agendas.

And those agendas include Christian nationalism, they include slashing taxes and other immense, you know, eliminating regulation on oil- - Cutting taxes is not fascist.

- No, no, no, no.

Of course.

That's why I said fascism only wins when you attract lots of different groups who themselves wouldn't consider themselves fascists.

So in Germany, the business elite supported Hitler because he was gonna smash the labor union.

So you're gonna have billionaires supporting Trump who are like, "Well, I don't care about the immigration stuff," you know, "Maybe my son is trans" or something, or, "My daughter is trans, but that won't affect me, but he will do this for me."

And so what a fascist grouping does, it tends to be very wealthy business people, then a kind of dominant group, anxious people who feel they're being displaced.

Then a lot of, then Christian, then religious nationalists who feel, who are against abortion, against LGBTQ perspectives and people.

- But Professor, isn't this more... Again, don't know how the election's gonna turn out, but it's not a secret, as we tape this program, that a significant number of African American men, disproportionately, Hispanic men, disproportionately, and again, not a majority.

I don't know what it is.

That's not the issue.

But how the heck can you call Trump a fascist when in fact he has a significant amount, and I'm not saying a majority, a plurality, anything like that, of support in the non-dominant group?

- Yeah, so- - It doesn't add up to me.

- Totally.

These are important things to work out as one is, and we're all working this out together, but I felt like, I think we can expect this.

- Sure.

- So we all know that all white supremacists and all KKK fans are voting for Trump, so we know that.

So then the question is, why is it?

And we know all anti-Semites are voting for Trump.

But lots of Jewish people who love Jewish people are voting for Trump.

- Italian American friends of mine are voting for Trump, and they do not consider them, and not just Italian American friends, but the group I grew up in, the neighborhood I grew up in.

- Absolutely.

- Heavily Trump supporters.

And you said, "Fascism," they go, "What?"

- Absolutely.

Yeah.

- We're not.

That's ridiculous.

Go ahead.

- Yeah, which is also a lot of social conservatives voted for the Nazis 'cause the Nazis said, "The other people are for making your kids gay."

So, you know, plenty of social conservatives voted for Nazis without considering themselves Nazis just because of the LGBTQ element to the Nazi platform.

So there's an element.

So there are...

I also think there's a substantial amount of misinformation going on in focus groups.

So mass deportation, what does that mean?

I think if you ask, I think a lot of people, a lot of Latinos who will say, who are, think they're, who are gonna support Trump or in that camp right now, think mass deportation means sending back Mexicans who came here in the last two years.

Once they're told, "No, it means like, you know, your cousin who didn't do her paperwork quite right, she'll be in a camp," then it's a different...

I think the media has been failing us by- - We have failed on the issue of... No, no, no, no, forget about, I'm not talking about me or public television.

You think we, by and large, in the mainstream media have not done a good enough job putting this fascism in perspective.

This fascism, putting fascism in perspective and the danger it potentially causes for our nation and our future.

- Yeah, yes.

- And democracy.

- Yes, I think that we have gotten complacent and people haven't asked.

I think the media hasn't interrogated questions like, you know, what does it mean to ban divisive concepts like structural racism?

What does that mean in practice?

What is happening in these states?

What does it mean, mass deportation?

What does that mean in detail?

What does that mean?

Like we see in Oklahoma, we see these things happening already.

We see in Oklahoma buying bibles for every classroom, requiring teachers to teach out of the- - That's fascist?

- No, that's Christian nationalism.

- Okay.

- But what I'm saying is, the media is failing to explain the extremity of the extreme nature of what is being proposed.

- What do you, okay, first of all, two quick follow-ups.

A, can Democrats, B, are Democrats, some, fascists?

- No.

They can be communists.

It's a different, there's different ideology.

- So binary, Professor.

You're making it sound, respectfully, and I'm not here to argue with you.

I'm trying to understand this.

It sounds very binary.

Democrats can't be fascists.

- Right.

- Republicans are... No, you didn't say that.

But this group is more likely to be.

- Okay, so there's two, there's a confusion.

There's a bit of a confusion you're making.

- Go ahead.

- You think fascism is a slur that means bad things.

- It does!

- It isn't.

It means a specific thing.

Mussolini was proudly fascist.

Many people were... And now, I think you're gonna get more and more people self-describing as fascist, but fascism is a very particular thing.

There are very bad left-wing things, but they're not fascism.

They're just as bad as fascism.

Mao killed as many people, Mao and- - Mao Zedong, right?

- You know, but they're not fascists.

They're communist authoritarian, so the- - Where's the military in this?

Where's the military in this?

- Ah, excellent.

How does the military fit?

- Connect fascism, fascist leadership with the military.

Please, Professor.

- Fascist leadership venerates the military.

The tricky thing in the... Like look at Russia.

That would be a classic case.

Look at where the United States, the history of the United States with fascism is a little bit more complex.

In the '30s, the German American Bund and the America First party led by Lindbergh, who we know the Nazis regarded as- - Charles Lindbergh.

- Charles Lindbergh, as hopefully a future American dictator, Hitler.

They were for keeping America out of the war.

They were for keeping America out of World War II because they thought, you know, "We're actually unified with these people.

Why should we care?"

- Were they isolationists like Joseph Kennedy?

- Not all isolationists are fascists.

- Okay, I'm sorry for complicating it.

Go ahead.

- Right, no, I'm saying a fascist structure is a very specific thing, and it's somewhat different in different countries.

In America, the America First movement, which we know is connected in all sorts of, you know, it was all sorts of ways to German support, and the America First movement was isolationist.

It was also, Lindbergh was an explicit racist and an explicit anti-Semite.

He said, "We need to seal the walls to protect the white race against the yellow race and the Black race."

So each of these individual components, like, is not itself fascism, but fascism is a structure of anti-immigration, certainly, you know, certain elements like a strong military.

I'm for a strong military because I'm for- - But it's using the military.

In your book, you talk about the use of the military to put down those who oppose.

Is that a fair assessment?

- Yeah.

Yeah, so- - How are your... Go ahead.

We got a couple minutes left.

- Targeting the opposition with...

This is classic in most authoritarian regimes.

All authoritarian regimes are gonna do this, though.

All authoritarian regimes, fascism, communism, whatever stripe they come in, Fidel Castro or Putin, are going to imprison their political opponents.

So Professor, help me on this.

Whether someone's a communist, a socialist, whether it's China or Castro, you know, when Castro took over from, didn't take over.

He, Batista got thrown out and he was a dictator there.

They don't call themselves fascists per se, but the military is key to shutting down any opposition.

Fair to say?

- Absolutely.

Any kind of authoritarianism, be it fascism, be it communism or some other kind of, or monarchy is going to use the military against its political opponents because it's not a democracy and so there can't be political opponents.

A king will do that too.

So that's authoritarianism.

A lot of the confusion that's happening with terminology is that we're talking, we face an authoritarian threat.

The specific kind of authoritarian threat we face is fascist, unlike, say, in Venezuela where they faced communism.

So we face fascism.

That means we should expect certain things.

One of the things is like extortion.

Like, unless we win, we're gonna tear this place down.

That is- - Are you worried that, how, again, 45 seconds left, unfair to you.

We can hope and pray all we want.

Are you worried that there are some who if they do not win this election, next election, next election, will tear it down?

- Yeah, I expect that.

- You expect it?

- Yeah.

It happens all over the world.

Why wouldn't it happen here?

It's what we're being told, so I think it's likely.

- Jason Stanley, this is his second book on fascism.

He's fascinated by fascism and he's, I believe, caused many watching right now and me doing this to be even more interested in fascism than ever before.

"Erasing History" is the book, "How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the Future."

Jason Stanley, a professor at a little university, Yale University.

Great having you with us, Professor.

I wish you all the best.

Thank you.

- Thank you so much.

- I'm Steve Adubato.

That's another compelling, important interview, doesn't matter whether you agree or not.

Just make you think.

See you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

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And by The New Jersey Economic Development Authority.

Promotional support provided by New Jersey Globe.

And by Northjersey.com and Local IQ.

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