-[Deborah Holt Noel] Just ahead on "Black Issues Forum" reimagining the state's education system or wanting to return to the past, women's ongoing struggle for equal pay, and what's behind questioning of Judge Jackson's credentials.

Stay with us.

[upbeat music] ♪ Welcome to "Black Issues Forum", I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

In a recent "Charlotte Observer" opinion piece, James Ford, an at large member of the State Board of Education and executive director of the Center for Racial Equity and Education was critical of the recently established House Select Committee on An Education System for North Carolina's future.

This committee met for the first time in January and the question that they're focused on is if today there was no education system in North Carolina and we were charged with establishing one, what would you like to see in a new education system or not see?

And this is a question that the committee has invited public response on and you can follow and engage in their work by looking them up on the North Carolina General Assembly website.

A concern that Ford outlined in his editorial is the makeup of the committee.

He notes that 54% of the children attending public schools are students of color, but the nine member Select Committee is all-white with one black member.

He also called out this committee for attempting to take education back to the past and for using coded language.

And here are a couple of comments from the meeting.

For example, "Parents have abdicated their responsibilities to schools and they need to be students' best advocates."

Another, "Many things that worked then would work now.

When I had young kids, they had more discipline, respect, and care, and most had two parents at home."

Another comment, "I think we need to get back to understanding that the primary purpose of education is to equip these kids to be good adults."

So another individual who has comments about the meeting circulating on social media is North Carolina Association of Educators president, Tamika Walker Kelly, and we are excited to welcome her to today's panel.

President Kelly, it's great to see you again.

I also want to welcome back Tivi Jones, founder and CEO of "Hey Awesome Girl", and introduce Shemekka Ebony, co-founder of "I Am Brilliant", community engagement strategy expert and author of the book "While I'm Getting Naked".

So let me ask you first, Tamika, did you read coded language in any of these comments?

- Well, first, thank you again for having me on the "Black Issues Forum".

It's a pleasure.

And regarding the comments that were made, the first concern as outlined by the James Ford is from who these comments are coming from.

Our public schools are full of diverse and wonderful student populations and they reflect our growing diversity as a state.

However, the demographics of this House Select Committee do not reflect the demographics in our public schools.

So when we hear the coded language around student discipline, around a family structure, not only is that language very coded, but is also antiquated.

We should be moving our public schools forward in progress towards the future and not moving back to the past.

- Thank you so much.

And certainly by way of the name of the committee, there are good intentions, but who doesn't wanna see improvement in our public schools?

But if you were to reimagine schools, let me bring you in, Shemekka, if you were to reimagine schools, what would you include?

- You know, I would include prioritizing, especially for at least the high school level students that we include something that gets them passport ready whether it's an extra opportunity to get them missions-based experience to open up their horizon when it comes to travel and preparing them for a global industrial market, so that they can see their own space, their ownership, and other people like them and creating experiences for international travel at early ages is one way of creating solutions that have not been tried.

I've seen it done in New York within African American led initiative by a female former teacher there, but she sees this as an opportunity to expose the international opportunities of growth, entrepreneurship in young people.

- So creating those global learners before college.

I know that a lot of colleges are focused on that.

Tivi, you're a businesswoman, how would you reimagine the schools?

- I totally agree with Shemekka here on the entrepreneurial perspective and expanding their horizon.

But one of the things I also want us to consider when we think about the educational ecosystem is how do we infuse more equity into that ecosystem.

When children show up at school, they're not starting fresh at school and ending at the end of the day, they have lives outside of the school day that impact how they learn, what they hear, how receptive they are to new things, how much they can study.

So I encourage, obviously I'm not an educator, but I think we need to take a whole child perspective into the conversation when we're thinking about reimagining education.

- Thank you.

And Tamika, certainly, what are your thoughts on this reimagining schools?

What do you see?

What parts do you think need to be included in this consideration?

- So one thing to note is that our educators, our students, parents, and community members have been consistent in communicating to this General Assembly ways that they can improve our public schools through restoring cuts which have underfunded our public schools for more than a decade and to address the need of fully funding a constitutional high-quality public education for every student in North Carolina.

So it is a little hard to watch a committee convene to talk about reinventing and reimagining public schools in North Carolina when they haven't fulfilled their original obligations to the students of North Carolina.

A fully funded, fully resourced public school wouldn't just be imaginative, it would be transformative for all of our students.

- And there was no mention, hardly, of the Leandro decision.

So if Leandro were implemented, wouldn't this go a long way toward actually implementing and doing some of the changes that are necessary and maybe getting a head start on this reimagination, President Kelly?

- Absolutely, the full end funding of Leandro would absolutely transform and progress our schools in ways that have never happened in the history of this state.

And it would put a balance to many of the disparities, opportunity gaps, that many of our students face not only from a class lens, but from a racial lens as well.

And so we have a constitutional mandate in our governing documents, which this general assembly has failed to live up to.

And so we, as stakeholders, must continue to press on that so that we can see our students progress to a more rich future.

- And Shemekka, now you still have a dog in the fight because you have children, as I understand, but they're homeschooled.

And there is an opportunity coming up for more parents to get more involved.

Superintendent Catherine Truitt is assembling a 48 member parent advisory commission to quote "Elevate the voice of parents in students education."

And it will be comprised of parents with kids in public school, private school, and home schools, and charters.

What are your thoughts about this commission?

- I think this commission is very interesting in the theory of wanting to engage the community, which would be parents and stakeholders, and then the actual practices of the intentionality behind the community engagement necessary.

The level of this initiative is mass and it takes, honestly, us in the community to amplify our voices as parents.

I have some of our older children are in public school right now in very diverse learning across Wake County.

And, we also, because of being denied for even pre-K education learning for my youngest child, we transitioned to homeschooling because we understand the priority as parents, our role in our education and advocating and getting involved in our community to know when these things are happening.

And when there's public input, which you'll see in this situation there's an opportunity for people to sign up for public comment and those are the spaces we have to flood our voice.

Where there's absence, where there's no seat at the table we gotta make our own and write policy to put some teeth behind what we wanna see change in the general assembly.

- Well, folks have until March 30th to sign up for that new commission.

So be on the lookout for it.

And we know that another element that's very important in this ecosystem is well prepared teachers and well paid teachers.

And we've talked before about the need to increase pay for teachers.

And what we do know is that most teachers in public education are women.

And regardless of what industry we're talking about there's a need to increase pay for women and there's an ongoing fight for equal pay for women.

Shemekka, you have numerous projects under your hat as an activist, an advocate for women and children.

Talk about how equal pay has surfaced in the realm of the work that you have been doing.

- So we targeted equal pay a couple of years back in partnership with Action NC and the NCE Women's Alliance, which is a collective of women led organizations across the state.

And we wanted to advocate not only for pay equity but looking at policy.

So we were doing lobby days.

We created a legislative agenda.

We took it back to our organizations and we pumped it in our communities to really amplify educating people for one, in what the legislative process is.

And then also implementing who's gonna take on our agenda?

Who's standing up with us and owning our power in these spaces that we are electing officials in?

And those that were not getting in line then we're giving them a report card and reporting back out on what they're not doing and how they're not supporting way before it gets into the electoral season of promises.

We're holding you accountable and we're looking for receipts.

And we were able to do that through collaboration and working together intentionally.

- Such valuable work.

And Tivi, when you hear the statistic about unequal pay, that in the US black women are paid 63 cents for every dollar that white men are paid.

It could result in nearly a one million dollar difference over the course of a 40 year career.

That's a couple of houses, it's a trip, a couple of trips.

How does knowing that fact cause you to kind of reflect on your past jobs and pay?

- Yeah, knowing that fact or hearing that fact is something that I've always known in my career.

That's part of the reason why I became an entrepreneur to be able to set my own rates, to be able to determine my own career trajectory.

And that's part of the reason why we have our mission at Hey Awesome Girl is to empower women to own their expertise so they can negotiate better, so they can charge more for their services.

But I also think we have to look at the history of why women are so under paid in our society and a lot of it is systemic.

It's in our generation, our parents generation, our grandparents generation that women were first able to own their own property and open their own bank accounts by themselves.

And so there's a legacy of assuming that women deserve less because they aren't, you know, head of household or they aren't, you know, leading families but our society has changed so much over the past 50 to 60 years.

And our compensation structures have to catch up with that.

- I think a lot of it has to do with the narrative and who's telling the narrative.

Because, for so long who's been lifting things up?

And that's not to say that men aren't doing very valuable and important work in the house and outside of the house, but for centuries women have done heavy lifting.

President Kelly, how does unequal pay do you think get justified and why is it allowed to fester?

- Well, one of the things that was raised earlier is that the unequal pay between men and women, even black women and their white counterparts is a systemic issue and one of the ways is how we view work.

A lot of the work that women take on as roles is care work and there's not a lot of value placed on the emotional work or the care work that is done by women.

And so we know that once we honor and value that work we are able to make strides to close the pay equity gap not only for black women, but for women in general.

- And when women are lifted up those households get lifted up and it in turn affects that education ecosystem as well.

Now, with passage of the Equal Pay Act in 1963, it became illegal to pay women lower rates for the same job, but the disparity remains.

Shemekka, do you think that equal pay can be addressed through the legislation?

- It has to be one component of the wheel.

I've amplified as a solution within the work with Black Girl Magic Market as entrepreneurship, owning your space.

And the gap I see is not only race and gender, but it's also lived experience expertise because we put so much weight on the expertise of academia, and we've devalued people's experience and what they've survived and what has been working in their community as individuals.

So my pay equity has also been targeting equity among people with lived experience, identified and valued as experts when they're working with these organizations to create solutions and helping institutions create solutions.

Co-designing with people with lived experience expertise is a way we've been combating pay equity gaps.

- What are your thoughts on why it's allowed to fester, Tivi?

And can legislation help?

- I think we need legislation.

I think like Shemekka was...

I think Shemekka said earlier about giving it teeth?

Like we need more than just marches in the street.

We need more than just conversation where it's only women at the table.

We live in a capitalist and patriarchal society, and we have to have legislation to give this issue some real teeth.

- I agree.

And what are your thoughts on this, President Kelly?

When it comes to legislating this issue, do you think that rules and policies can help?

- It is really important to put practices into policy so that they are sustainable and measurable over time.

And so as we continue to make progress, to increase pay for women and close the pay gaps for women, and Black women in general, it's important to make sure that that is enshrined in policy so that we can keep our legislators accountable to progress that is necessary in order to make sure that all of our women, no matter who they are, are able to grow and prosper in their respective communities.

- Well, interestingly enough, when it comes to equality, the problem may not start at the negotiating table.

It starts before you even land the job with questions about a woman's credentials, Judge Jackson's resumé is packed with prestigious accomplishments Her classmates at her Miami area high school voted her most likely to succeed.

And as an impressioned teenager she said she wanted to go into law and eventually have a judicial appointment.

She did just that.

Graduating from Harvard both undergrad and law school becoming a judge on the federal court in Washington D.C. beginning in 2013. case in point, a conservative commentator on Fox News known for dishonesty and inflammatory racist remarks got blasted for asking to see the LSAT scores of Supreme Court nominee, Ketanji Brown Jackson.

Tivi, what does this commentator's question tell you about him and about the problem at large?

Now, I'll mention his name, Tucker Carlson.

- I mean, it's a very small approach to belittle or question someone's credentials.

She's Supreme Court Judge Jackson.

I think what's behind it is the legacy of racism.

I think what's behind it is the legacy of a patriarchal society that believes that women aren't as valued and can't possibly come as qualified as someone who doesn't look like them.

And honestly, I just think it's a small man's way of trying to tear down someone who' clearly at the top of her field.

- And it happens in small ways.

I mean, that's a somewhat of an obvious and very public way of questioning.

And we've seen it happen before.

It's happening here with Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson.

It certainly happened with Barack Obama.

"Let's see your birth certificate."

"Why did you get here?

How did you become the so, and so?"

And often the question is innocent, "Oh, tell me about your background," you know, but we kind of know what's behind it.

How do you respond Shemekka to questions like is, questioning the credentials of folks?

And especially, when it's couched in legitimacy.

We know that Black people ask about the credentials and background of other Black people.

"Oh, well, who have they worked with?"

and that kind of thing.

so it's legitimate, but what do you think is... Or it's said to be legitimate.

What do you think is at the root of all of this?

- I agree with much of what has already been said about the root of the racism.

My first thought about Tucker is, "Who hurt you?"

You know, "Like really?"

I see this person like that kid on the playground that maybe didn't have friends around.

And then if this is just a character for him, whoever wrote this script has obvious being hurt and probably needs a hug.

So my prayer and my thoughts and reflection is to cover this woman as she's going through this process for he is a microcosm of a larger representation of ignorance in our country, but we have this opportunity to stand behind her and get behind her and cover her because we see it.

We know it.

We identify it.

For me, I exceed expectations when I get challenged with those questions.

I am gonna silence the room because I'm gonna acknowledge who I am, and I'm not hiding my light.

And you can credential search all you want.

I wrap circles around those that are seeking credentials, 'cause again, I found my value and lived experience, and I bring my that expertise everywhere I go, and I don't have to code switch anymore.

And I don't have to accept someone questioning my value 'cause I know my value and my word.

- Oh, that is key.

The need to code switch has really kind of flipped in recent years.

No more is the code switching all that necessary.

In fact, employers are looking for your lived experience but then to take the next step and attach value yourself.

Like you were saying, Tivi, to your own lived experience and take that to the negotiation table and make sure that you're getting what you deserve is so important.

President Kelly, how do you see this manifesting in the education world with teachers and teacher pay and principals and principal pay?

- Well, one of the things that we know as an as educators is that our students standardized test scores are only one reflection of a spectrum of things that they can do well.

And so to even question the LSAT score of a Supreme Court Justice nominee is rooted in white supremacy, is rooted in racism, is rooted in patriarchy, right?

And well, this shows up in our school systems all the time when we see the credentials of people who are overqualified for many positions, students who are overqualified to take classes, students who are overqualified to play in certain arenas and for certain awards get overlooked because people want to question their credentials.

And so one of the things that we work and have worked throughout this entire past few years as we have made strides in honoring our students as they show up as their whole authentic selves in the classroom.

And as educators, we've been doing the professional development work necessary in order to assist students in showing up exactly who they are and helping them lean into their successes.

- Well, it sounds like the credentialing question.

It extends beyond black women, certainly there for black women, but it extends beyond and extends to black children in classrooms, to black men and otherwise.

And even strictly to women in the business setting.

And we talked earlier in this season about the questioning of Vice President Kamala Harris' credentials and also her work.

And people say, "Well, where is Kamala and what is she doing?"

Is that something that you all questioned as well?

Or how did you respond on that?

Let me start with you, Tivi.

- Me personally, I did not question it.

[laugh] I mean, I think Shemekka was saying earlier, something around what I perceived as giving people grace.

You don't have to approach someone automatically assuming that there's something going on behind the scenes.

I think that to Shemekka's point, I cover Vice President Harris.

I support her in her work.

I know there's a lot going on behind the scenes that I don't necessarily see.

And just because there's implicit and or explicit bias when it comes to women and people of color, doesn't mean that I have to take that on.

I can assume the best.

And I think that's something a lot of us need to do in America these days, is assume the best, and not just automatically question someone and what they're doing based on how they look.

- Absolutely.

Let me ask you all this final question, which might be the final question, but the hashtag, #WhenWomenWin, has been circling on social media during Women's History Month, March, which is when this was recorded.

So what happens for everybody when women win, Shemekka?

- Oh, I mean, when women are winning, we have this maximized potential to reach a what's possible that has not been experienced before.

If we're winning in economics, if we're winning in public health, if we're winning in equity, if we're winning in destroying racism, then we're creating a new possible.

While we're pursuing winning, I believe we also gotta rewrite our vision of what winning feels like for us and what it looks like, so we can begin showing up now to get the momentum going.

So when women win, we all win.

- So, it is up to the community and it is up to the individual, up to the self.

Let me get your feedback on this, President Walker, what happens for everybody, when women win?

- So one of the beautiful things about being a woman is that we are connectors in our community.

We are caretakers, we are nurturers.

And so when we uplift our women, when we are supporting our women, when we allow our women to shine in all of the multiple ways that they are good at and that they succeed at, it literally lifts our entire communities because we, as women, are a collective.

We lean on each other, we work with each other, we hold space for one another.

And so, we bring our entire communities when we come to the table.

Whether it is an executive board table, whether it is in schools, whether it is leading community initiatives.

And so, when women win, our communities are winning as well.

And so, we should definitely make sure that we are investing in the success of all women.

- Agreed.

Tivi, what happens for everybody, when women win?

- I mean, I can't say it better than my colleagues here.

Studies show that when women succeed, when women make more money, when women have more resources, they invest it back in their community.

So we see that anecdotally and also the statistics reflect that fact.

So I agree with everything that has just been said.

- Well, that is our nature.

Tivi Jones, President Tamika Walker Kelly, and Shemekka Ebony, thank you so much for spending your time with us today.

-Thank you.

-Thank you for having us.

I wanna thank today's guests for joining us today and we invite you to engage with us on Twitter or Instagram using the hashtag, #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum or listen at any time on Apple iTunes, Spotify, or Google Podcast.

For Black Issues Forum, I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

Thanks for watching.

[upbeat music] ♪ - [Narrator] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you, who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.