- Just ahead on "Black Issues Forum," diversity, equity, and inclusion.

There were many promises to do better after 2020.

What's working, and what's not, and why?

We'll talk about it.

Stay with us.

[upbeat music] ♪ Welcome to "Black Issues Forum."

I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

Diversity, equity, and inclusion, or DEI, is an expression we heard more and more about in the 2020 social awakening that followed George Floyd's murder, as well as the economic and health disparities brought to light by the COVID pandemic.

From America's biggest companies, Black Americans heard words of support for Black Lives Matter, and pledges to do better in order to help bring about equity, and close some of the gaps.

Today, are we seeing the fruit of those promises, or is the DEI movement mostly performative?

We've invited DEI executives from different sectors to examine these questions, and share what they have learned about how DEI is working, and not working.

I'd like to welcome Dee McDougal, a Global Head of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, Dr. Torri Staton, Vice President of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusivity for the Greater Raleigh Chamber of Commerce, and Donald Thompson, CEO of The Diversity Movement.

I am so excited to have all three of you here.

We have some heavy weight and some great expertise, so I wanna open up with you, Dee.

Just tell me a little bit about your work in the DEI space.

What's your role, and what objectives are you trying to achieve for your organization, or the organizations that you serve?

- Thanks for the invitation to talk about this topic.

I currently serve as a Global Head of DEI within the financial services and consulting industry, and in that role, I'm responsible for diversity, equity, and inclusion, both internally and externally, so everything from talent attraction and recruitment, so helping to get more diversity into our organization, helping folks from all backgrounds have a great employee experience, with respect to how they develop and grow their careers, and then also in industry and outside our organization, how are we showing up?

And I think that my role is representative of what a lot of folks in DEI do.

It's very multifaceted, and focuses on a lot of different areas.

- Thanks so much.

And Torri, how about you?

- Yeah.

So as the VP for DEI at the Raleigh Chamber, I do three subsections of work, right.

So the first is that internal work, making sure that the people at the chamber are including DEI initiatives in their events, in their programs, as we do outreach all of those things, making sure that we are keeping the key tenets of DEI alive.

I manage what's called the Triangle DEI Alliance, which is a collection of businesses in the Raleigh, Wake County, and Durham areas that have decided to prioritize DEI, both internally, and externally in the community as well.

And so we do specific programming for these businesses, and for the folks who really are passionate about DEI work, to make sure that they are incorporating important practices in their DEI journey as individual businesses and organizations.

And then finally, I work with Wake County Economic Development.

As we all know, Raleigh and Durham are growing vastly, and we wanna make sure that we are keeping the equity piece in that economic development.

We wanna make sure we're growing equitably, keeping those vulnerable communities in mind, making sure we're not pushing folks out, making sure we are giving appropriate levels of access to everybody who is in our community, and making sure we're approaching growth with a community mindset.

And so that's what I really do with the Raleigh Chamber.

- Such important work with a very rapidly growing city as Raleigh is.

And Donald you've been in this work for a long time, and with a name like The Diversity Movement, I mean, it's almost clear what you're doing, but what do you see as the goals for the groups that you work for?

- A lot of organizations are very encouraged about diversity, equity, inclusion.

They're putting out press releases and different things, but they don't truly know where to start, how to measure, and how to actually grow DEI into the fabric of their organization.

So we develop tools and technologies that help support that DEI work, so that people at a CEO level, or frontline professionals, have access to information at their fingertips that they can use tomorrow.

- So we're seeing a lot, I at least am seeing, a lot of CEO titles under diversity, and I'm wondering, who's doing diversity and DEI well, and how do you measure that success?

What are, I guess, the KPIs, Dee, when you look at those key indicators that tell you, "Hey, they're on the ball, it's a good environment"?

- Yeah.

So I think internally, it's really important to look at a few key areas.

So, of course, representation.

So when we talk about representation, we're talking about within an overall employee population, are diverse groups of people represented?

Of course, we wanna focus on diversity of thought, diversity of lived experience and background, all of those things, but the movement that you spoke about in the intro really was focused on where is the representation of Black employees within these companies?

You know, we look at the lower levels of the organization, or entry levels.

Those are often very diverse, but as responsibility, and often compensation, grows, the less diversity exists at those levels.

So one of the key indicators of a diverse organization is that the diversity exists all the way up to the top, and those reporting directly into the CEO's office.

So representation is one thing.

Another thing is really the employee sentiment.

So for folks from diverse backgrounds that are working for your company, what is their experience like?

So if you do an employee engagement survey, and you're able to slice and dice that data by demographic group, or other pieces of information, are people from different backgrounds having the same experience?

Do they feel the same way about your company?

And if not, what interventions can you put into place?

There are also key indicators around diverse suppliers.

So most companies spend money externally.

So if you look externally within your, excuse me, if you look externally at how your firm is spending money, are you putting money in the pocket of diverse-owned businesses?

So those are three key indicators, and a lot of companies, since 2020, have started to publish that data externally.

Again, this is a journey, so not everyone's ready to share that data externally, but there are some DEI transparency reports that report on this type of information.

So representation at all levels, and sliced and diced by different demographic groups.

Also, looking at the employee sentiment, so employee engagement survey results by demographic group, and then that supplier diversity piece is really important as well.

There are a host of others But those are three indicators that I think can kind of signal the health of a company's DEI program.

- I think that's really helpful to anyone who's trying to implement this in their own organization.

And Donald, I want to kind of skip to the point of these chief diversity officers who get into place.

We know that, according to the research, it's already been proven, the business case for diversity.

There's stronger performance, there's a stronger bottom line, the greater you have diversity at the top of any particular organization.

And we know that a lot of companies who believe this and already have kind of subscribed to this, now they wanna make the change.

They want to support diversity.

They wanna have a diverse staff.

And they want their clients and customers to know that they care about this.

So they bring in a chief diversity officer.

But what's happening is what appears to be a disconnect between the fact that hey, here's this person in place, but I'm not seeing the things happen at my organization that Dee talked about.

And people at the organization are not feeling love.

They're not feeling like they're welcome.

The inclusion part is missing.

What do you think is happening with that disconnect?

- So there's a couple of points that we see, and we work with hundreds of different companies.

Number one is what level in the organization is the chief diversity officer placed?

Are they reporting directly to the CEO or someone in the C-suite that has that juice if you will in the organization?

Or are they buried within HR or learning and development?

Title is one thing, but access to information, access to decision making power is critical.

The second thing that is really important is the actual engagement of the CEO in the DEI journey.

Is that CEO a partner with that chief diversity officer?

That speaks volumes throughout the organization.

And finally, a lot of chief diversity officers are hired outside of the organization, and their first six to 12 months are just learning the culture of the new business.

We're seeing a lot more success when the chief diversity officer is partnered with leaders within the organization that already understand the existing culture, and then they can change it together.

And so a lot of times, there's a misalignment in expectations of what one super person can do, versus what a team that should be embedded in the organization should be responsible for.

- Thanks for that.

And I wanna get your feedback on that too, Torri.

You know, is that what you're seeing as well?

And what would you say are some ways that the chief diversity officer is not empowered or could be better empowered to do their work?

- Yeah, so often times, chief diversity officers have to come in and they really have to make some uncomfortable decisions.

Make some uncomfortable statements about the culture of an office and about how people are able to move forward and how people are able to matriculate through the office, right?

If you come in to an office culture and there are policies in place that are limiting to folks in their abilities to be safe in the space and to belong in the space, then the chief diversity officer often has to step up and really have the gumption to say "You know what?

This is an unfair policy.

"This policy excludes folks by "keeping people out and doing those things like that."

And so we have to be often voices for the voiceless in our areas.

And if we come into spaces and we are not given that space to be open and be honest and allow that growth and change, then having us is really not going to help, right?

If you're not willing to shift that culture, then what is the purpose of bringing someone in?

It's purely performative, right?

And so often times, you have to come into an open space where a CEO, where the C-suite and even the staff members are willing to be open to those policy changes, to those culture changes and those culture shifts, and ultimately stand behind them.

And so the chief diversity officer really needs a lot of support in their position.

- I'm sure you've encountered situations where you come into an organization and you want that everyone is open and ready for diversity.

Let's go do this.

But you have to create, I would say, a safe space for conversation.

Each of you, I'll just start with you Torri.

How do you create that safe space and make employees from the top down feel like they can say what they need to say in order to break through and have those honest conversations?

- Yeah, I think it's important to always be approachable but with an equitable lens, right?

I always come into a space letting people know that I'm gonna use, I'm gonna talk about data, I'm gonna talk about equity peace, you know?

I think if people can reduce DEI issues to person to person contact.

But there is that equitable peace.

We want to make sure that we're understanding systems and how they're working towards folks.

And so I always say, you know, when we talk about correction, when we talk about shifting, when we talk about changing, it is for the betterment of this space, right?

It is not about a personal thing.

It is not about making people feel bad or making people feel guilty.

It's always about making people feel included and making people feel as though they belong.

And so if I do give feedback, it is always in the love of the space and in the love of the place.

You can love a place and want it to be better, right?

And so you can give that good feedback to them.

I think it's also important to allow folks to give their own voices to a situation, right?

Often times, we wanna stand up for people and speak for people.

But you know, sometimes it's time to step back and let other folks, who typically don't take up any space or any voice, give their opinions as well.

And so allowing people space where they feel as though they can step forward and speak for themselves is important to create that safe space as well.

- Dee, what would you add to that?

- Yeah, so I think my approach is, you know, having empathy.

Modeling the behavior that I'd like to see.

So in sharing and creating space for people to share their own experiences.

I do that as well.

I also help people understand that this is a journey, and even though I'm a diversity practitioner, that I'm on this journey as well and I don't get it right 100% of the time.

I think to the point that Torri made, often we talk about correction.

We often talk about correction and we talk about what we need to fix.

But I think that it's really important to have people understand that this is something that we are doing together, and that we all have a role to play in this.

So it's not me telling the organization, "This is what you need to do on your own."

It's something that we are doing together.

And I create sort of this access for my senior leaders to come and ask me questions, sort of in a judgment free zone.

So that they know that when there's an issue or anything along those lines, that I can help coach them through it, and we're doing it together.

- That judgment-free zone is so important.

Don, what would you add to anyone who's listening about creating that safe space and where there's no judgment, but understanding that there's accountability for what you say as well?

- I think it's really simple.

We all have points of view and life experience that kind of shape the way we see the world.

Slow down and understand and listen to that point of view of others before you're making blanket statements in response.

And what I've found, quite frankly, is people that may come across as not understanding or negative about DEI, really it's more about not understanding how DEI impacts the work that they do.

And so I give space to listen so I can really find out how to be helpful based on the point of view of the person that I'm talking with.

- So go into that.

How do you create that connection, or how do you make it relevant to that person who's saying, "Hey, listen, I work "at an organization that's predominantly Black," or, "I work at an organization that's predominantly, "that everybody around here is white."

So, why do we need to have any kind of DEI training?

- So I'll look at a marketing organization, for example, and we're working with marketing organizations with inside big companies that are trying to build their brand to be more authentic and more open to different points of view.

You can't do that by having a homogeneous organization where you don't get input in a broad level.

And so I try to attach diversity, equity, inclusion to the business outcome people are trying to achieve.

So if you're trying to sell more, if you're trying to recruit differently, then maybe look at the language in your recruiting video that's on your website.

If you're trying to sell more products to women, maybe have women in the room when you're designing that marketing campaign for that product.

And so when you think about those things in terms of getting practical, I find more engagement with folks because now we're not talking about DEI jargon.

We're talking about how to get the work done.

And when I work with people on how to get the work done, now all of a sudden we're on the same page and we're not talking at each other.

We're moving at that common goal, which is to grow the organization.

- Yeah- - You wanted to add something here?

- Yeah, I was just gonna say, you know, one of the things that I, when delivering trainings and workshops, if we're in person or virtual, I ask people to raise their hand if problem solving is part of their role, and almost everyone should raise their hand, right?

And because we're all solving problems, whether it's for our internal clients or external clients or other organizations that we serve, diversity leads to better problem solving.

because to Don's point around sort of a homogenous point of view or perspective within an organization, if you have diverse lived experiences, if you have diverse backgrounds looking at the same problem, they're gonna bring that to the solutions that are at the table.

And so if we're in the business to solve problems for clients, and we have a diverse group of people looking at the same problem, we're gonna end up with a more well-rounded solution.

So no matter what you are talking about with respect to diversity, if you can have more diversity at the table, you'll end up with better solutions.

So getting back to tying diversity to business outcomes and solving business problems, that really needs to be the focus, as opposed to it being a feel-good or performative measure.

We really will have better business results if we focus on diversity.

- So the business case has been made for diversity.

I wanna talk a little bit about inclusion and equity, and reference a report out there.

In fact, there's been a jump of 107% between 2015 and 2020 in the number of diversity heads across organizations.

However, what's been shown is that African American women in particular have not been rising through the ranks.

First of all, at the entry level, there are fewer African American women hired.

Then when it comes to that next level of being advanced to managerial levels, the percentage is 11% of African American women compared to about 27% of white women.

And then when you get all the way to the C-suite and look at the demographics, only about 4% of C-suite executives are African American women, compared to about 21% who are white women.

So when we talk about diversity, you might see the diversity, but we're not feeling it in our pocket books oftentimes, and also just feeling that inclusivity.

So what do you think accounts for that difference, and how do you resolve that?

I'm gonna start with you, Torri.

- I think that can be a big access issue.

Who are we reaching out to?

Who are we looking for their expertise?

And also, whose voices are we valuing in those tables, right?

When we talk about recruitment, for example, I always ask, are you recruiting from historically Black colleges or universities?

Are you looking for folks who may have had a blip in their employment, right?

Are you including those folks who we don't typically look for?

Are you looking for the Harvard graduate, or are you looking for somebody who's done research in diversity, equity, and inclusivity?

Are you looking for someone who's done that racial equity work, or are you just looking for somebody to fulfill the title, someone who looks smart and someone who can fit into certain spaces, right?

I think when we think about what we typically see as an executive that automatically moves other people from the space, simply because we have been taught through our interactions, through our exposure, even through popular culture and media what a CEO should look like, and oftentimes when we have that in our minds, we're automatically keeping other people from the table.

And so one thing I always ask people to do is expand their idea of what an executive looks like, because you might have someone who you've discounted who can bring all the knowledge to the table, right?

- Mm-hm.

- Mm-hm.

- And Don, I wanna bring you in here and address some pushback that exists out there with regard to DEI.

For example, here's a comment that I read in an article that was titled "The Problem with DEI."

The comment was, "In the past, hiring advancement "has been based mostly on merit "with a little cronyism thrown in "and we have to make sure that DEI is a better approach."

So, what problems do you see with that understanding of DEI?

- Well, let me answer it like this.

Number one, my superpower is dealing with negative constructs around DEI.

I love it, right?

So I enjoy those conversations, quite frankly, because most people are repeating things they've heard, not things they truly believe or understand.

And when presented with a different set of facts and data, people will open up their mind.

So let me give you a very quick example.

- So I was working with a VP of Sales that said, "Why do I need this DEI stuff?"

And then I just described, "What is your sales cycle?"

"12 months."

"How much is your quota-carrying salesperson deliver?"

"Five to 12 million."

"Do you care if that is a woman, a male, straight, gay, "young or old person in that role, "if they can sell $5 million of software a year?"

He said, "I don't care."

"So would you mind if we talked with your HR team, "your talent recruiting team, "to expand the network of universities, "to expand the language skills that they have "on the interview process, "so you can have more candidates, "so you can have more sales professionals "that sell that $5 million?"

By linking that negativity back to the positive financial outcome of that business leader, that business leader then had me come in and speak to their global sales force.

What happens with DEI professionals is we talk from a social justice angle.

We talk often from the-right-thing-to-do angle.

Business leaders move when it aligns with the goals that they already have.

So what we need to do in the DEI space, which is our responsibility, is we need to link diversity, equity, and inclusion to the mission critical goals that are already established in the organization and tag off of that momentum.

And that's just a quick example of how I dealt with a negative situation that turned out to be uniquely positive.

Because I didn't take it negative, I took it as an opportunity to educate with pace.

- And what I hear in that also is just a focus, and I'll bring you in here Dee, a focus on the bottom line and what matters in the business world.

How important is that when we're talking about DEI and all of the values of DEI?

- It's the most important!

Businesses won't do things that don't make them better businesses.

And so if we're able to tie the efforts of DEI, to Donald's point, to business outcomes, and we really need to.

We call it, you know, attaching ourselves to the commercial side of the business.

We need to understand the business.

We need to understand how the business runs, what makes the business successful in different areas of the organization, what are the KPIs, and how can we support that.

We want to train leaders to be inclusive because inclusive leaders lead to high performing teams.

That's how we weave in sort of a focus on DEI.

We can't just layer it on top of something, on top of the list that leaders and other folks within the organization have to do.

We can't view it like compliance.

We often have to separate ourselves from HR from an internal branding perspective because people view HR in one light and we need them to view DEI in another.

So there are lots of things that we need to do to make sure that we are aligned with the business.

We also can kind of push the envelope a little bit when we help our people internally understand what our client's expectations are.

More and more now clients are asking, "What's your DEI strategy?

"What are your DEI outcomes?"

And people in regulated industries have different regulatory bodies asking, "What are you doing about DEI?"

So it's not just that diversity, equity, and inclusion is a feel good initiative that's gonna fleet with time, it's something that we really need to embed into the fabric of our organization so that we can meet our internal stakeholders expectations as well as our external stakeholders expectations.

- And that's a key word Dee.

Torri, she used the word "expectations".

And there are expectations, I would imagine, that people who are in those marginalized groups have of DEI.

What would you say a healthy expectation is for marginalized groups when it comes to DEI?

- Yeah, I think people really expect to be able to come to work, to be productive, and to feel as though they belong.

To feel as though they are a part of the team.

To feel as though they can express themselves openly and freely.

And to feel as though they will get what they need to do their job to the best of their ability.

And oftentimes those expectations cannot be met.

And so that's the role of the DEI executive, to come in there and say, "Let's make sure we are giving folks what they need "to do their jobs effectively."

And that's the equity piece, right?

Oftentimes with the equity piece, we can talk a lot about diversity, we can talk a lot about inclusion, but that equity piece, it addresses the systems, right?

And so making sure that we are creating a system that gives everyone what they need to do what they need to do is an important part of DEI.

- I'm gonna give you the last 20 seconds Donald.

A message to CEOs out there who want DEI at their organizations.

- It'll help you grow a better business, create larger impact, and most importantly, it'll help you build an enduring brand for the new economy.

The numbers are very clear that Generation Z shops with organizations, and wants to work with organizations, and for organizations, that believe in diversity, equity and inclusion.

- Donald Thompson, thank you so much.

Dr. Torri Staton and Dee McDougal, thank you all three for being with us today - Thank you.

- and your great advice.

- Thank you - This was great fun.

- I wanna thank all of our guests for joining us today.

And we invite you to engage with us on Twitter or Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on PBSNC.org/blackissuesforum, or listen at any time on Apple iTunes, Spotify, or Google podcasts.

For Black Issues Forum I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

Thanks for watching!

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