and good evening.

Thank you so much for watching HealthLine here on PBS Fort Wayne.

I'm your host Mark Evans tonight we're going to switch gears a little bit.

>> We're going to talk about something that's very important in our lives and something that we all need to deal with at one time or another.

>> Fact a couple of things the process of grief and mourning.

>> We're going to talk about bereavement this evening.

Have a very special guest with us, Tim OSullivan Tim never been on the program before so you're in for the rest of your life .

>> Let me tell you, Tim just kidding.

Thank you for having me.

>> Absolutely.

We're glad to have you because I actually see that you hold a bachelor's degree in addictions counseling and a master's degree in mental health counseling and also a palliative care oncology hospice chaplain and currently oversees a team of social workers, chaplains and volunteers caring for patients with terminal diagnosis.

>> So it's an honor and a pleasure to have you here today.

Let's go ahead and promote the fact that we're going to take calls tonight a very important subject the phone numbers on your screen.

It's 866- (969) 27 two zero anytime in the next 30 minutes we'll take your call for us.

It is public television.

We won't be stopping down for commercials so call us any time and we would truly appreciate giving you that feedback.

>> All right.

So Tim, we're going to mainly address the bereavement process as a result of someone's death.

>> But what other types of loss do we grieve about?

>> We can experience all sorts of losses in life here.

Maybe the the loss of a job could be the loss of financial status we could experience when a child goes away to college that can be experienced as a loss any major changes that happen in our life .

There's some grieving that goes on within those changes.

>> Yeah, and so but I would imagine losing someone you love would probably be the heaviest grief that you can deal with.

>> Wouldn't you agree?

Sure, sure.

There's actually a hierarchy that's been developed by people who are smarter than me of the different types of loss that you can experience in life and what type of impact that they actually have on your day to day lives and activities and and the death of a loved one is number one.

Oh, I would imagine very, very heavy.

I've gone through it myself several times and you know, there are several stages of grieving and what was it the Cooper Ross report that came out study about 50 years ago and every time I Googled something a day to find more information about the topic we're talking about that particular study came up but there are some I guess advances since those 50 years or some other ways of thinking.

>> Let's talk about the stages of grieving and talk about how that has changed.

>> Sure.

That seems to be nowadays a pop psychology understanding of what bereavement is and it really was a groundbreaking study when it first happened 50 years ago and to actually put into order the different stages that that somebody could theoretically go through and grief was an important structure to to create.

So really was a great study but we've learned quite a bit over the last 50 years now most people who do studies on grief still stick to very similar stages or maybe they call them developmental areas of grief but it hasn't hasn't changed a ton.

But there are some some new things that we understand about grief well and we handle it.

>> And for instance, the five stages of grief that I discovered today denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

Now when they bring those up it does not necessarily people grieve in that particular order.

>> Correct.

And not everybody goes through all of those stages of grieving now every grief that somebody experiences is an individualized thing and and so that's why we can we have to be a little bit careful when we talk about the stages of grief is that we don't look at the stages as maybe a progression of things that we must go through with regards to grief or if we've missed one of the stages somehow we're just not doing it right.

The truth is some of this will experience all of those things.

Some will experience a couple some will have a much easier time with grief and some will now and some won't until later.

Sure.

Until it soaks in until they get things taken care of .

>> Now in my experience and in fact talking with some friends about this subject, I said never going to be talking about grief and mourning and one of those individuals who is a very smart person as a matter of fact said well what's the difference?

I thought grief and mourning are the same thing.

But there are two differences right?

>> Sure.

We we encapsulate it all in the title of bereavement but grief and mourning are actually two different things.

Grief is really the inward journey.

It's the mind pictures that we have about our person, the things that we're feeling that inner the inner stuff that we're experiencing that maybe we aren't expressing on the outside the sadness that maybe we have that we just we we carry inside of us whereas mourning is the active expression of what's inside of us.

So mourning might be crying at the funeral or maybe being angry or or going through that frustration or an anxiety that comes with the loss of of somebody we loved.

>> Yeah.

And to just encapsulate what you just said, grief is the internal the thoughts, the internal images and feelings and then mourning.

That's what we're doing over in England right now with the beloved queen.

>> But mourning is the external the words, the outward expressions and visible emotions.

>> OK, I can see those differences.

All right.

And let's talk about the fact that actually some of the notes that I received before the show you wanted to talk about the real work of good grief and mourning.

>> What is meant by that?

>> Well, it's a process.

It requires work.

It's not something that we can just stand by and allow to happen to us.

We have to be participants in our own journey when it comes to bereavement, I think the most important thing that we can do is understand that it's not something that we should be doing alone.

We should have some help.

So incorporating some other person or persons into what we're going through is is highly important and doing the work of of grief and bereavement.

>> It's it's just something we have to have.

Yes.

And you know, I was giving you your introduction earlier.

>> I also noticed here in your resume, if you will, that you are also a licensed and ordained pastor.

So this all kind of ties in with the work but not all bereavement counselors are pastors, is that correct?

>> That's true.

That's true.

And in reality the longer that I do this, the more that I understand that I I know very little and and I think that's everybody's experience and why why bereavement can be such a a tough subject to talk about because we all get that that feeling like I don't know that I want to be close to that because I don't know what to say.

I don't know what to do.

I don't know how to behave especially around somebody who's who's experienced a profound loss.

>> It's just hard to do what's right.

Yeah.

And you were talking about the fact that you're a hospice chaplain and you also lead a team of social workers and chaplains and volunteers to care for those patients with terminal diagnosis you as a bereavement counselor get that up front during that process and I don't talk about this very often but you know, not only am I a broadcaster but I'm also a funeral profession professional and I've been doing it for about 12 years.

>> But I'm only mentioning that is because I'm on the other side of the fence where I see these families coming in after they realized that this person is deceased and now we've got to make those arrangements and do a tribute for these folks.

So as delineation I guess of different types of grief and they're coming in after they've grieved and they're still grieving and they're still trying to work through all this process.

And I know that our funeral directors have to listen to the stories and every family is different.

There are no two funeral services the same No two families the same.

>> So with in your position I'm sure you've never met a family, two families who are the same who have the same beliefs or grieve the same?

>> Oh, absolutely not.

And and there's even that that period of time where when we were able to be with somebody prior to the death of a loved one, we can see that they're experiencing that anticipatory grief as well.

>> Yeah.

To be able to be in that space with somebody and understand the different losses that occur even before a death happens is a special place to be and to watch that and be able to be supportive of somebody as they're going through something difficult like that is is is huge.

But then there are those deaths that that take place that are either traumatic or unexpected that really nobody has a time to to think about before.

Exactly.

And I want to take a call from Isaiah in just a second.

I say hang in there for just a second.

But I've noticed too in the other business I'm in the person who's really grieving the most in most cases is a spouse of someone who's just passed away.

And not only does that poor person have to go through this grieving process, but I hear things like now I got to figure out how I'm going to pay all the bills.

>> There are so many things that he did that I didn't do or sometimes she and you just have to feel sorry for them and try to be a pillar of support.

>> You know, it's going to be OK but it's going to take some time to work through all this and you know, we find ourselves just let's just take it as saying this we're going to take it step by step step at a time at your pace.

>> So that usually helps a lot .

A friend of mine wrote a story about grief that that happens to a spouse when they lose a loved one that includes all those roles that they have to take on.

>> I didn't expect and he tells a story of how a young man showed up to a grieving widow's front doorstep one day and and said, ma'am, I'm here to to mow the lawn and proceeded to get his lawn mower out and mow the lawn.

He came back the next week, ma'am, I'm here to mow the lawn, mow the lawn that next week and and finally three four weeks in this widow said to him, you know, can I pay you something?

What's going on here?

And he said, Oh ma'am, your husband knew that you would need this after he was gone.

>> So he's arranged for everything and it's prepaid for the service.

So just just thinking of roles like that that that come to be when you experience a loss that we never never expect.

>> But but there are some things we can think about ahead of time.

Well, there are and of course we always will need support.

>> Not everybody can get through this by themselves.

In fact very few Isaiah he has called and I guess he might be a little on the shy side and that's fine because we have quite a few viewers who are but Isaiah is preferring to stay off the air and he's going to ask a very important question here when is it time to see a counselor for grief?

>> So Isaiah, I'm assuming you're thinking of a professional counselor.

It is always the right time to to have a friend or have somebody helping you through grief.

There are some other things that we can do like grief groups and there are educational groups and there are also peer to peer groups that that can help somebody who's struggling with loss and then we get into the individual counseling if you if you're at a point where you you feel like you've talked to the people around you and you've and you've gotten some good help but you just need a little bit more and and maybe you've attended a group and and you've shared your story and shared with others that they shared theirs and you're still in a place where you're just not sure that you're able to handle this all on your own.

That's that's when you need to seek after professional help.

Correct.

And it's OK to talk to your physician about it as well to because they may have some some good ideas on how to help you and they have excellent referrals, referral sources for you to plug into that type of help with individual counselor.

>> And on that note, Tim, I wanted to ask you know, is there for instance if Isaiah didn't go to a counselor and he's depending on his friends and his family and some people you know, unfortunately as we get on with life we have fewer family members and hopefully we'll have a few friends who are sticking around but what are the most important things to remember when somebody is grieving or going through a loss of a family member or a very close friend?

Are there right things to say wrong things to say right things to do wrong things to do?

>> Can we talk about that for a second to her?

Sure.

As far as things to say there's no magic words to say.

There's nothing that we can say that's going to alleviate the pain that somebody is going through.

>> But we can say you I get that you're hurting and and I understand that this is tough and I just want you to know that I'm not going anywhere during this process.

I'm here with you and as many times as you need to talk about it or retell your story, I'm here to listen and I'm not ever going to get tired of of listening to that because I know you need it and because I care about you.

I want you to have those things that you need in order to incorporate this into your life in a way that that makes sense to you.

>> Yeah, and of course they're looking for consoling words.

>> But I think and just in my particular I mean my personal experiences, my professional experience I have noticed that if you just open up that conversation, that dialog and sit back and actively listen and let them know that you care enough that you're listening to them, they're getting a lot off their chest and they're actually sorting things out as they're verbalizing we say safe places and safe people.

OK, we want to create an environment in which people feel comfortable sharing whatever's on their heart, including the emotions that are attached to the grief that they're feeling on the inside and we want to be a safe person .

We're going to sit without judgment and listen and and not try to compare any experience that we've had in our own lives to to what they're going through at this time because there is no comparison.

Every grief experience is different.

Yeah, but just to be a listener and just to be a helpern and to be someone who is compassionate and has empathy for for what they're going through, it goes a long way, long way and they don't expect you to be an expert and have all the answers.

They just need to get things sorted out here themselves.

Talk and also just have somebody who is going to be comforting while they're going through this and it's not an overnight process.

>> I mean give me some examples of how long grief can last.

There's no time limit on grief.

We know that grief can mimic some of the some of the symptoms of depression but we know that it's not exactly like depression because when you're a grieving person, those things that you experience over a period of time and that timeline may look different for you know, for each person but over the period of time the the grief experience or the the edge of of that experience comes down over time whereas if you're a you're a person dealing with depression, your depression may waver but it's going to stay at a pretty high constant most of the time.

>> We do know that when somebody is dealing with grief it's not a forever thing.

It will get better now will you have a hole in your heart always for that person that you've lost?

Yes, that's a forever thing but it becomes more manageable and it becomes something that you can incorporate into life to where you can live a life in a meaningful way and even have hope for the days to come.

>> Exactly.

And death is inevitable.

It just a matter of when and getting over that is a very personal thing and getting through that now I happen to stumble across something it's called grief or complicated grief and I notice that's mentioned several times and some of the things that I looked at today.

>> So there is such a thing is called complicated grief.

Sure.

So what makes the grief so complicated could be many, many factors because everybody experiences grief in a different way.

Sometimes it could be something as simple as our own personality getting in a way let's say a person who was losing somebody was already an anxious person to begin with.

Well, when they experience the loss of a loved one, anxiety is tied up into that grief experience and can actually multiply some of the things that they're feeling.

Sometimes people use unhealthy coping mechanisms to deal with grief like maybe drugs or alcohol or or some other behaviors that are just not not really good for them but they satisfy the urge to get rid of that pain that only complicates things and it may take care of the pain and the short term but it really is going to complicate things in the long term.

>> Yeah, some things I noticed the unnatural untimely death and I do see a lot of that in the other business I'm in and that always takes people by shock and you just don't think you don't want to think about someone's death.

>> You know it's going to happen down the road but it's it's just not something that we're going to sit down and think about and ponder on every day.

>> Right.

But I do honestly believe that we need to have a little part in our brain or in our heart that things like that are going to happen and just try to understand how you are going to deal with this.

>> It's OK to grieve, right?

It's OK to cry.

Absolutely didn't matter if your three hundred pounds big and burly it's OK to cry and believe me I've seen a lot of big and burly men cry.

>> That's right.

And the only reason people would say it's not OK is not because anything that the grieving person is doing is wrong.

It's because grief can make us uncomfortable when we experience somebody else grieving we want that to stop because it's making my feelings happen and I don't want to feel those those same things.

>> So if I can say things that are usually the wrong things to say like everything's going to be OK, you just need to stop crying right now.

>> Yeah, maybe you should get a dog.

You know, just some really silly stuff comes out of people's lap but those are silly and actually I've heard those things before.

>> You know that's those are when I was talking about things not to say earlier in this conversation I was I guess I was alluding to those kinds of yeah.

>> Oh you'll find somebody in no time they'll be out there dating and dancing in no time you don't want to say that.

>> Well, and on the on the same note, if you are creative in person, if you're going through something difficult right now, you need to give a little little space for those people who don't exactly know how to deal with what you're dealing with.

You know, they're going to be people who really surprise you ,people who you never thought were going to come to your aid and and be good listeners and appreciate what you're going through and and then they'll be people who you thought were going to be really good at this ,you know, maybe even some of your best friends or family members who are going to be the ones who say the wrong things or do the wrong things.

>> And in moments like that we just need to give them to space.

The space to make those mistakes and not judge them too harshly either.

>> Nobody really knows exactly how to do this and it's it's it's one of those things that it's just really tough for our personality to figure out and you just have to work through it.

>> There's no magic pill.

There's no magic way to do it.

We've got a few minutes left in the program and Cat is calling and I want to make sure we have her question on the air here is when do you know that grief is disrupting your life and what should you do to cope ?

>> Thank you for asking that cat.

Sure.

Those there are a few different times when grief will disrupt your life when you know that you're you're postponing your grief and that is when you're saying look, life is busy right now.

I don't have the time to deal with this.

I'm going to feel these feelings later on in life when you postpone it and you never get around to feeling those feelings or readdressing the grief, that's that's when things get complicated.

>> So maybe it's time to start talking to somebody.

Yeah.

There are times when we replace our grief with something and that might be the the situation where somebody actually does get a dog and they decide I'm going to pour all my feelings and all my love into this dog that I that I got rather than putting any energy in the feeling of the loss that I've experienced that can be dangerous.

You know, our minds are wonderful things and they give us respite from these feelings from time to time.

So one of the biggest fears that people have is is that if I enter into this area of feeling fear for my loss, I may never come back out of it.

And the truth is our brains know how to bring us out of that and we'll never get stuck in that place where we're just completely overwhelmed.

24 hours a day with the grief that we have.

>> Yes, it can be very overwhelming not only for the people who are grieving but the people who are standing by to help and support those who are grieving and sometimes we just don't know what to do for them.

But as you mentioned, we need to be good listeners and just show that we're there to help them at all times.

>> And you know, we're talking about, you know, your background in the church and of course you know, palliative care and so forth and me in the funeral homes when it comes time to needing help and seeking help, I would personally recommend wherever you go if it's within your church.

I know churches have various I don't want to call them clubs or committees to help you get through this grieving process.

They also have information that they can provide to you I know we do at our funeral homes and as far as the hospitals I mean you've got a centralized location there of all kinds of professionals who can help you.

So kudos to the industry that you're in for doing that.

>> So with a few minutes I think we've got two minutes left.

Would you like to leave some parting words and final words for our viewers on the subject a bereavement?

>> Sure.

If and thanks for bringing that up because if you if you are have a trusted spiritual leader or somebody that you think you can talk to in that realm, that's a perfect place to go to get help.

You know, we're all spiritual people in grieving as a is a spiritual thing.

It causes us to question the meaning of life and a great great existential matters like why do good things or why do bad things happen to good people?

And so sometimes we have to be able to sort through the difficulties of those questions not only when we lose somebody to do our roles change in the world and we have to learn again how to be ourselves.

That can be a difficult journey.

So finding even just one person to be that helpful person for you if it's if it's a member of the clergy or if it's a physician or if it's a best friend or if it's a stranger that you meet at a at or peer to peer group and churches are a great place for four for getting involved in one of those.

You can contact your local hospice if you want more information about what type of bereavement opportunities there are in in your area in a hospital also would have access to that information as well.

Referrals to counselors contact your doctor.

Your doctor is going to know how to refer you to to specialists if you need more help when the important thing is such as yourself, there are people to help you get through it.

>> Absolutely.

Okay.

Tim O'Sullivan, thank you so much.

Bereavement counselor.

It's been a very interesting conversation and very humbling conversation and we hope to have you back again very soon.

Thank you very welcome.

>> Thank you for watching.

We will see you next week here on HealthLine PBSC Fort Wayne good night and good