- [Announcer] Someone gave, someone donated, someone left a legacy.

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(upbeat music) - Welcome to another edition of In Another Opinion, a public information program, where our discussions are focused on the diversity of the state of Rhode Island.

I'm your host Peter Wells.

My guest today is Dr. Terza Lima-Neves, co-founder of Poderoza conference and a proud Kriola Cabo Verdean woman.

Dr. Neves, welcome to the show.

- Thank you.

Thanks for having me.

- Oh, it's my pleasure.

I was just hearing Providence that we have so many people that are related from the islands.

And I was wondering, are you related to any of the Limas here in Providence?

- There's a great chance that I may be, since Cabo Verdeans, we're all cousins, to be honest with you.

So there's a great chance that I may be related to some Silvas and some Limas in the area.

- Oh, very good.

Well, my wife is in Amado and her dad family comes from Brava, but George Lima here in Province was one of my closest friends from early days.

- Awesome.

- But anyway, to the point, tell us and the viewers, doctor what is the Poderoza conference?

What is it about and is it exclusive to Cabo Verdean women?

- Sure, absolutely.

So this is the Poderoza conference, well, Poderoza means an empowered woman in our native.

It can, in Cape Verdean, Kriola or Portuguese.

That's what Poderoza means.

But it is a conference that I co-founded with my good friend and amazing historian and colleague Dr. Aminah Pilgrim, who's out of Brockton, Massachusetts, another fabulous Poderoza.

And back in, you know the idea came out in 2015, we wanted a platform where Cape Verdean women could have a place to network to get to know each other, to learn from each other and to celebrate each other.

No, it is not only for Cape Verdean women.

It is for all who are interested in Cape Verdean culture, who want to know about the gender dynamics, who want to learn about Cape Verdean women in general.

So we're going on our third installment of the Poderoza conference which is at the Providence College every other year.

So it's been absolutely fantastic.

- So what year did it actually begin?

- The first conference happened in 2016 and it's always the first Saturday in March.

Obviously we know that March is women's international month.

And so we wanted to make sure that it coincided with that.

- Very good.

And Providence College has been your host ever since?

- Yes.

Providence College has been my host.

Providence College is also my alma mater and I still have great relationship with the Friar community.

I'm a political science and Black studies major and minor, class of 2000 and proud Friar.

And I couldn't be more proud and excited that they decided to support this amazing venture, knowing that Providence College sits in the heart of the Cape Verdean community.

- Well, it does.

And I have to admit, I'm not familiar with the conference.

I wish I had attended in the past, but I will make sure that through the show, of course, that people know more about it.

The Cape Verdean experience in Rhode Island in Massachusetts, New England general is an interesting one and has a very long history, quite frankly, but-- - Absolutely.

- And it's a very rich history, there's ups and downs, and there's the whole issue of statehood.

The issue of rather, I should say, not statehood, but as a country being independent from Portugal back in the 70s.

And how people identify with being Cape Verdean today versus being necessarily Portuguese.

I can tell you a quick story years ago, I used to be a bank examiner, and I've used the Cape Verdean experience as part of my conversation with bank officials when we were focusing on the act of being able to buy mortgages, women purchasing homes and things of that nature.

And I would say that Cape Verdean experience is kind of interesting because you may see a Cape Verdean sitting across from you at your desk, and it looks like an African-American person, but their birth certificate might say Caucasian because of the history of being connected to Portugal.

A lot of the older generations still in fact, in the area considers themselves sometimes Portuguese rather than Cape Verdian as part of the independence, as a West African nation and part of the United Nations.

So it's kind of an interesting history and does have some weird issues, but we're talking about women today and Cape Verdean women, and what role they play in society and within the community.

So tell me, what has the conference accomplished over the years since 2016?

- Absolutely.

And the story that you bring up and some of the complexities as I like to call 'em about on gender race, ethnicity, these are some of the topics that come up at the conference.

So therefore we're not just talking about women, but we're talking about the way that women and men define and create community and the discussion around race and ethnicity, as I said, so the conference creates this really awesome space for the entire Rhode Island and US community to talk about out some of these issues and how do we move forward?

We also have international audiences.

We have people that have come from Europe and Cape Verde itself.

So the conference is, I would say global, it's the first of its kind, but is also a movement.

It's not just the conference.

What we wanted to do was create a long standing and sustainable vehicle that Cape Verdean history gets recorded through the eyes of Cape Verdean women, those who identify as women.

So we've published a book called "Poderoza" in may of 2021.

So the book came out and it encompasses a collection of stories, academic research, poetry, reflections by Cape Verdian women, born in Cape Verde and outside of Cape Verde.

So from the US, Portugal, the UK, and we've also created the Poderoza Legacy conference, which is a smaller, I would say, actually a symposium legacy because we are focused on the younger girls, so young women and girls, and we had that conference in early May of last year as well.

So again, I say that this is a movement.

It's not just about the particular conference for more adult audiences, but also creating a legacy where Cape Verdean young girls and women feel supported as well and can have a platform.

And of course, documenting our history and being in charge of tell our own stories, which is what "Cabo Verdean Women Writing Remembrance, Resistance, and Revolution."

That is the official title of the book by Lexington Books.

That is what we hope to accomplish.

And it's doing very, very well.

- Doctor, could you repeat the title of the book again, for our viewers?

- Sure.

It's called "Cabo Verdean Women Writing Remembrance, Resistance, and Revolution, Kriolas Poderozas."

And it was published May 2021 by Lexington Books.

- And that can be purchased on Amazon, probably?

- On Amazon and on the Publisher's website as well.

- Very good.

Very good.

I'll look forward to that.

And of course, mention to my wife, she may wanna get a copy of that and take a look at that.

- Absolutely.

We're very proud of it.

It's doing really, really well.

It's not necessarily an academic book.

It can be used in academic settings, but we wanted to write something that everyone could read.

So not just women, but also men, our daughters, our sons, and our wives, everybody.

- Very good.

And you mentioned international, so are there branches of the conference in other places or is it strictly just here in the US and the information is spread out?

- Sure.

So far the actual conference happens here in the US and we keep it every other year and the first Saturday of every March to make sure that people make their plans if they're coming from overseas.

So they know exactly when the conference is taking place.

We don't have other branches, formal branches in other countries or places per se, but I can tell you that it is inspired movements in other places, other Cape Verdean women.

For example, a group of women came from Luxenberg from Europe and it inspired them to create their own event that they have now every year to celebrate and support each other.

And so it actually is not just for Cape Verdean women, it's for Black and brown women.

And so it's inspiring movements and other symposium and conferences throughout the diaspora.

And that's what we hope that this is, that was our vision and mission to create this encouragement and inspiration so that other people can just begin to create space and hold space for each other.

- Now, when your family migrated from Cape Verde, did they come to specifically to Rhode Island or did they go to North Carolina or how did that happen?

How did you get to school and what have you here?

- So my family, so I was also born and raised in Cape Verde, in some descent island.

All of us actually were born and raised there.

I have two younger sisters and we landed in Pawtucket, Rhode Island.

The mill capital of the US.

And we lived in Pawtucket for many, many years, but through my connection, through my mentor at Providence College, he introduced me to the historically Black college experience by taking me to conferences where, for example, the National Conference of Black Political Scientists.

And so many of the professors at Clark Atlanta happened to know the Cape Verdean history and the history of Amilcar Cabral, the founding father of the Cape Verdean state.

And I automatically said, that's where I have to go to school.

So that's how I ended up in the south, particularly in Atlanta.

And now I'm in Charlotte, North Carolina, but I am Rhode Island through and through.

Don't get it twisted.

I am Rhode Island all the way.

(both laughing) - Well, Rhode Island sure is proud of what you've accomplished and making a name for yourself as well as for Rhode Island and the school.

- Thank you so much.

- Oh, you're more than welcome.

So tell me about the role of the Cape Verdean woman in the community, both on the island, let's say as well as does that role change here on this in the mainland, on the States.

- So I think the role doesn't change with location.

I think it changes with generations.

And I think that it's only getting better and more exciting and more independent and spontaneous.

Historically speaking, because this is my area of work.

I focus on Cape Verdean women's studies, Cape Verdean women have been the preservers and the builders of our communities.

We are the educators.

We are the ones who are leading the organizations and doing support initiatives to help back home in several moments throughout history.

So we come together for whatever is necessary to keep the communities alive and thriving, whether we're in Cape Verde or we are anywhere in the diaspora.

And so what we're seeing now is that with each generation that comes, we're seeing that we are more educated, formally educated.

We are going after the college degrees a lot more, we're bolder, we're starting our own businesses.

We are daring.

We're not only concentrated in the New England area because we know that United States is a vast country with so many opportunities.

And so we're going to different locations.

We are going out to the West Coast.

We are the ones who are founding organizations that support movements back home.

So this notion that Cape Verdean women do not support each other, which is a popular misconception that Cape Verdean people in general don't support each other, or that Cape Verdean women do not work together.

I seem to talk back against that stereotype and perception because the Poderoza conference, for example, is a huge demonstration of the capacity of the Cape Verdean woman, other organizations that exist right there in Rhode Island, Massachusetts and Connecticut Cabo Verdeans United, and even CACD, the Cape Verdean American Community Development is headed by some wonderful Cape Verdean women right there in Pawtucket.

And so I tend to get really personal, and I take it personally when people say that our community don't support each other because the research and the experiences say otherwise.

- There are two different Cape Verdean community centers or clubs.

I know there's one in East Providence.

And then there is the one in Pawtucket as you mentioned, do they have interactions?

Do you know?

- So there are quite a few Cape Verdean clubs and centers.

I mentioned CACD in particular because that is the only one that exist in the United States that we own, we actually own the building and we operate it as such.

And it is welcome to all Cape Verdeans per se, not just those in Rhode Island, but there's several, there's across Connecticut, there's several organizations that exist with clubs where they actually congregate.

And of course, this Providence has a rich history of Cape Verdean community organizing.

And they have actually several places where Cape Verdeans congregate as well.

- They do the Cape Verdean Club, I've attended many functions as well as the museum that they have in this Providence as well.

- Absolutely.

And I don't know if you know that the museum is actually moving to Pawtucket, they have secured and bought their own, not their... We have purchased our own building and it will be opening soon.

- Oh I didn't know that.

- Absolutely.

And there was a huge fundraising effort.

And again, by the younger generation of Cape Verdean supporting and standing on the shoulders of those, like Virginia Gonsalves, who's one of the founders of the Cape Verdean Museum.

And so again, Cape Verdean women inspiring a younger generation of people to continue the work.

I encourage the community to come out and support.

- Well and you're right.

I mean, George, I mentioned to you earlier before we started the session today that George Lima was a good friend of mine, George and I were original founders of Blacks in Government in Washington, DC, back in the 80s.

And George introduced me to Providence and several other places that were really hot places for not only Cape Verdean community, but Black entertainers who came to Boston and couldn't stay in Boston, would stay in Providence and would play at the Celebrity Club on the east side of Providence.

- Absolutely.

- And that goes back to the 70s.

- That relationship between Cape Verdeans and the African American community, it runs so deep.

It is so longstanding, there's such rich history.

So I would love to talk to you more about that, at some other time, knowing that, you know so much, you are living history.

So that's very amazing.

- Well, glad to, and we will get a chance to talk together when I get down to North Carolina, but-- - Absolutely.

- But the community has been very, very active.

I had the pleasure years ago of meeting the Tavares family and used to participate in some of their activities when they were still singing as a group.

They were outstanding artists as you probably know.

- Absolutely.

- And then the Ramos family from East Providence.

Izzy Ramos became one of the first mayor of East Providence.

- Absolutely.

I have the pleasure and honor of interviewing him, meeting him when I was doing my dissertation on the Cape Verdean community quite a few years ago, he took me out to lunch in his Providence, literally anywhere we went, I was with him for the entire day.

And anywhere we went, I felt like a celebrity.

- Oh, I know.

- Because of him, it was such a wonderful opportunity.

And again, speaking to that concept of Cape Verdean supporting each other, I was so thankful that this man who was mayor, who was busy actually spent the entire day with me and allowed me to record him, to just follow him along, a testament to how supportive our elders are to the younger generations and knowing the importance of us recording the history.

What a sweet man.

- Oh he was.

One of the things that I enjoy most about the Cape Verdean experience here in Rhode Island is food.

Now food has always connected to culture and there's certain things that we tend to like, like munchupa.

And that is of course one of my favorite things, quite frankly.

And going to different restaurants, depending on whether the folks had a connection to Senegal, because there are a lot of connections from Cape Verde islands through the African coast to Senegal.

The cultures kind of interact between the African culture, the Cape Verdean culture and them coming to the United States and mixing some of that into it as well.

It makes it a very rich culture.

- Absolutely.

Of course, Cachupa is the one and only, (both laughs) food is culture.

And if anything, for Cape Verdeans, our food and our music are our biggest cultural marker.

And it sort of brings us together and Cachupa takes a shape of its own depending on where it is in the world, meaning how Cape Verdeans take it wherever they are with what's available.

So there's always that struggle whether it's Munchupa or Cachupa?

And I say, well, it's situational.

It depends where you are, in Cape Verde we say Cachupa and then we have, again, this rich diverse culture.

It just brings all of us together.

And there's also familial cultures and that's okay too.

We sort of adapt to wherever we are, but ultimately we're still Cape Verdean and we're still celebrated in diverse ways, but we're all still Cape Verdean.

- When we talk about the Cape Verdean woman being the background.

Well, the backbone of the family, be it Cape Verdean families or not, women tend to be the backbone of families.

They raise the children, they provide a lot of the cultural history and through food and through clothing and through dress.

So based on the studies that you've done and your experience, how has that changed over the years from original immigrants, maybe to now, if you know?

- Absolutely.

We're not trying to change the narrative.

I think the younger generation, and even my generation, I think that we're trying to diversify and complicate the narrative and knowing that we have choices, whether we're in Cape Verde or we're in the diaspora, that we all have choices.

Some of us will decide to who become very successful in our profession.

And we're not focused on being married and having children.

Some of us are very proud of our culture and still wanna get married and have children.

And some of us are just living our best life and not focused on the family aspect of it.

And that's still Cape Verdean culture.

And so I would argue that there's not one way to be Black and Cape Verdean, there's diverse ways.

And this newer generation of Black Cape Verdeans is doing a really, really great job at diversifying it for us.

And what it looks like to be a professional person, what it looks like to be a family person, whether or not they're choosing to have children or not, the age in which they're using to have children and what their family culture looks like.

I think that's really fascinating.

And I think that that is the space that we need for people to create space to be who they authentically are.

That to me is the Cape Verdean culture, to be able to authentically be what you want to be.

- There's a number of islands in the Cape Verde chain.

Would you say that the cultures pretty much are the same from island to island?

- No, absolutely not.

And again, so it's really, it speaks again to the whole of one Cape Verdean culture.

I don't believe that it exists because each island was developed differently.

Each island came in contact with different people from the external world, some had very strong British influence, had some French influence, Portuguese influence.

So to say that there's one Cape Verdean culture, just like our language, the Cape Verdean Creole is, the accents are different and some words are very different.

It has a lot to do with the external contact.

So for us to say that there's one Cape Verdean culture throughout the islands is rather erroneous.

And it erases particularities that exist.

I think that we should not be defined by that.

What happens in Southeastern island which is where I'm from is very different than what happens in Brava island.

And that's okay.

But as long as we know that we're all Cape Verdean.

There's enough space for us to be who we truly want to be.

And that's quite okay.

- It's very similar to the Caribbean islands, where you had the Italian Indians throughout the different islands in the Caribbean and how they were influenced by the, the influence of the Spanish and the French.

Doctor, we're gonna run out of time pretty soon 'cause a half hour goes by so fast.

- It sure does.

- When is the next conference in the Providence?

- Absolutely.

So the next conference will be in March of 2024.

Unfortunately, due to the pandemic, we had to cancel the 2022 iteration of the conference, which was to take place on March 5th.

A signature experience of the conference is the interaction.

As I call it, the cupcaking, the physical cupcaking of people and holding it virtually, it wouldn't have been fair, especially to our elders who may not have access.

So we strongly believe, Aminah and I strongly believe in equity and inclusion and access and holding it virtually just was not, was gonna leave a lot of people out who look forward to this conference every two years.

So March 2024.

- And at Providence College, as far as we know?

- Yes.

At Providence College.

It never fails.

For more information, please go to the Poderozaconference.com.

And we are also on all social media platforms.

You'll find all of that information there.

- Very good.

Well, doctor, we have actually pretty close to bring out of time.

And like I said, we'll just have to get together and have more conversation.

- Absolutely.

- About Cabo Verdean, and women and men, and what's happening here in the United States.

But we have run out of time.

I wanna thank today's guest, Dr. Terza Lima-Neves, and you the listeners for tuning in to another edition of In Another Opinion, a special thanks to PBS for making this program possible.

I'm your host, Peter Wells, give us your opinion on Facebook and on our podcast at, In Another Opinion, and have a great day.

(soft music) - [Announcer] Someone gave, someone donated, someone left a legacy.

Generations of generous someones have helped shape Rhode Island into this amazing place we call home.

How do you thank them?

By leaving your own legacy.

We can help.