♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> HE SEEKS LEGITIMACY FROM THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE.

THAT'S WHAT HE REALLY CRAVES.

>> THE BACKING PUTIN WANTS FOR HIS CRACKDOWNS AT HOME AND HIS WARS ABROAD.

FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO MOSCOW JOHN SULLIVAN GIVES US HIS READ ON WHAT NEXT AFTER THE RUSSIAN LEADER'S GUARANTEED ELECTION VICTORY.

>>> THEN A MUSLIM AND A JEW GO THERE.

BARONESS SAYEEDA WARSI AND DAVID BADDIEL JOIN ME ON PREJUDICE AND BRIDGING THE CULTURAL DIVIDE.

>> IT'S MUCH, MUCH EASIER TO SPREAD IT.

>> MISCOMMUNICATION EXPERTS CLAIRE WARDLE AND SAM GREGORY TALK TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT HOW TO SPOT A FAKE.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

POLLS ARE ABOUT TO OPEN IN RUSSIA FOR THIS WEEKEND'S PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, BUT THE OUTCOME ISN'T IN DOUBT.

VLADIMIR PUTIN WILL WIN A FIFTH TERM IN POWER, HAVING CRACKED DOWN ON DISSENT AND WITHOUT ANY SERIOUS OPPOSITION.

ALL HAVE BEEN BARRED FROM RUNNING.

THIS LATEST ELECTION WILL SEE PUTIN IN POWER UNTIL 2030, WHEN, OF COURSE, HE COULD RUN AGAIN.

HIS BIGGEST RIVAL, ALEXEI NAVALNY, DIED NEARLY A MONTH AGO IN A REMOTE PENAL COLONY, AND THIS WEEK HIS WIDOW WROTE IN "THE WASHINGTON POST" TO URGE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO REFUSE TO RECOGNIZE THE ELECTION RESULTS.

PUTIN HAS PUT HIS WAR IN UKRAINE AT THE CENTER, WITH EARLY VOTING ALREADY TAKING PLACE IN RUSSIAN OCCUPIED AREAS OF UKRAINE.

THERE ARE REPORTS OF PEOPLE THERE BEING VISITED BY ARMED MEN WHO ARE TELLING THEM TO CAST THEIR BALLOTS.

BUT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS FACING SOME RESISTANCE FROM HIS OWN PEOPLE.

ANTI-KREMLIN RUSSIANS BASED IN UKRAINE CLAIM THAT THEY'VE CROSSED INTO RUSSIA AND CAPTURED TWO VILLAGES.

MATTHEW CHANCE REPORTS FROM MOSCOW.

>> Reporter: THEY CALL THEMSELVES THE SIBERIAN BATTALION, ONE OF SEVERAL UKRAINE-BASED RUSSIAN PARAMILITARIES THAT ARE STRIKING ACROSS THE RUSSIAN BORDER.

WE CAN'T VERIFY THEIR VIDEO, BUT THE GROUP SAYS IT SHOWS THEIR LATEST ASSAULT ON RUSSIAN SOIL AHEAD OF A PRESIDENTIAL VOTE THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS CERTAIN TO WIN.

"NEVER MIND VOTING AT THE BALLOT BOX," SAYS THIS FIGHTER, TAKING COFFER.

"JOIN US AND VOTE WITH THE GUN," HE SAYS.

MORE DRAMATIC VIDEO FROM ANOTHER GROUP, THE FREEDOM OF RUSSIA LEGION SAY THEY ASSAULTED RUSSIA'S BELGOROD AND KURSK REGION.

TWO VILLAGES THEY SAY WERE CAPTURED.

RUSSIAN OFFICIALS SAY ALL THE ATTACKS WERE PUSHED BACK WITH DOZENS OF INVADERS KILLED, AS WELL AS SEVERAL TANKS DESTROYED.

IT IS UKRAINIAN ELECTION INTERFERENCE, ACCORDING TO THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT, WHO IS SET REGARDLESS TO SECURE A FIFTH TERM IN THE KREMLIN.

>> Translator: THE MAIN GOAL, I HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT IS, IF NOT DISRUPT THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS IN RUSSIA, THEN AT LEAST SOMEHOW INTERFERE WITH THE NORMAL PROCESSES OF EXPRESSING THE WILL OF CITIZENS.

>> Reporter: BUT HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS SAY THAT NORMAL PROCESS HAS ALREADY BEEN DISTORTED IN A KREMLIN CRACKDOWN ON DISSENT.

LEADING TO HUNDREDS OF DETENTIONS OF MEMORIALS FOR ALEXEI NAVALNY WHO DIED SUDDENLY LAST MONTH IN AN ARCTIC PENAL COLONY.

JUST THIS WEEK HIS FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF IN EXILE LENNON VOLKOV SAID HE WAS BRUTALLY ATTACKED WITH A HAMMER OUTSIDE HIS HOME IN LITHUANIA, LEFT WITH PAINFUL WOUNDS AND A BROKEN ARM.

MEANWHILE, THE KREMLIN'S STRONG MAN IS ALREADY LOOKING BEYOND THE RUSSIAN ELECTION TO THE U.S. PRESIDENTIAL RACE, INSISTING HE WILL WORK WITH WHOEVER, IN HIS WORDS, IS TRUSTED BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

BUT HE WARNED U.S.

FORCES TO STAY OUT OF THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

>> Translator: THE U.S. HAS SAID IT'S NOT SENDING TROOPS TO UKRAINE, BUT WE KNOW WHAT AMERICAN TROOPS WOULD BE ON RUSSIAN TERRITORY, INTERVENTIONISTS.

THIS IS HOW WE WOULD TREAT THEM.

EVEN IF THEY APPEAR ON THE TERRITORY OF UKRAINE, THEY UNDERSTAND THIS.

>> Reporter: BUT FOR NOW IT IS UKRAINE DOING THE FIGHTING, UNLEASHING A BARRAGE OF DRONE ATTACKS ACROSS RUSSIA, LIKE THIS ONE IN BELGOROD, FLYING NEAR A RUSSIAN OIL CITY IN THE CITY OF REZAN.

RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES SAY AT LEAST 25 UKRAINIAN DRONE ATTACKS HAVE BEEN THWARTED, BUT AS RUSSIA'S PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION NEARS, THE IMPACT OF ITS WAR NEXT DOOR IS BEING INCREASINGLY FELT.

>> MATTHEW CHANCE REPORTING THERE.

JOHN SULLIVAN WAS U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THEN UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN.

HE WAS IN MOSCOW WHEN RUSSIA LAUNCHED ITS FULL-SCALE INVASION TWO YEARS AGO, AND HE JOINED ME FROM WASHINGTON TO DISCUSS PUTIN'S RULE AND THE EXTREME DANGER OF WANING U.S. SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

AMBASSADOR JOHN SULLIVAN, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

GOOD TO BE WITH YOU TODAY.

>> SO IT'S GREAT TO TALK TO YOU AS WE HAVE THIS SHIFTING DYNAMIC ON THE UKRAINIAN BATTLEFIELD, AND AS PUTIN HAS HIS ELECTIONS THIS WEEKEND.

I WANT TO START BY ASKING YOU ABOUT SOMETHING HE TOLD RUSSIAN TELEVISION THIS WEEK, AND I'M GOING READ IT TO YOU.

"OUR TRIAD, THE NUCLEAR TRIAD, IS MORE MODERN THAN ANY OTHER TRIAD, AND IT'S ONLY US AND THE AMERICANS WHO HAVE SUCH TRIADS.

IN GENERAL, IF WE TALK ABOUT THE CARRIERS AND THE NUMBER OF WARHEADS, WE'RE MORE OR LESS EQUAL, BUT OURS ARE MORE MODERN.

EVERYONE KNOWS THAT.

ALL SPECIALISTS KNOW THAT."

SO AMBASSADOR, HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU THAT PUTIN KEEPS TALKING ABOUT HAVING THE UPPER HAND IN THE NUCLEAR DOMAIN?

AND EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT THREATENING TO USE THEM, HE KIND OF STILL DANGLES THAT THREAT.

>> YEAH, CHRISTIANE, HE HAS BEEN DOING THIS FOR YEARS.

IF YOU'LL RECALL BACK WHEN HE WAS RUNNING FOR REELECTION THE LAST TIME IN 2018, HE SPOKE IN FRONT OF A VIDEO, A CARTOON THAT SHOWED A RUSSIAN MISSILE STRIKING SOUTH FLORIDA WHERE THEN PRESIDENT TRUMP OF COURSE HAD HIS MAR-A-LAGO CLUB.

HE HAS BEEN RATTLING THE NUCLEAR SABER FOR YEARS.

IT'S BEEN PART OF HIS WAY OF DEALING WITH THE UNITED STATES.

HE'S INVESTED A LOT OF MONEY IN HIS NUCLEAR WEAPONS, AND PARTICULARLY IN NEW DELIVERY SYSTEMS.

HE HAS BEEN BASICALLY USING NUCLEAR BLACKMAIL OVER UKRAINE SINCE THE START OF THE SO-CALLED MILITARY, A SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION.

SO THIS IS JUST OF A PIECE WITH WHAT HE HAS BEEN DOING FOR YEARS.

IT'S HOW HE OPERATES.

AND IN MY OPINION, IT'S CRAZY.

YOU DON'T HEAR ANY OTHER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OR ANY OTHER LEADERS THAT HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS TALKING THE WAY HE DOES.

AND IT'S A CRAZY TACTIC THAT HE AND HIS PREDECESSORS HAVE USED FOR A LONG TIME.

>> SO THEN, AMBASSADOR, YOU SAY IT'S CRAZY.

SO DO YOU THINK, THEN, THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SHOULD -- BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND THEY'RE VERY WORRIED, AND WE'VE HEARD BIDEN SAY I'M NOT GOING TO GO TO WORLD WAR III WITH PUTIN OVER UKRAINE.

ARE THEY TAKING IT AS FACE VALUE, OR WHAT DO YOU THINK?

HOW IS IT AFFECTING THE U.S. SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE?

>> WELL, IT HAS AFFECTED THE U.S. SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, AND IT IS ONLY SANE, GIVEN WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, NUCLEAR ARMAGEDDON, TO TAKE EVERY ONE OF THESE STATEMENTS SERIOUSLY.

THE PROBLEM, THOUGH, CHRISTIANE, AND WHY IT'S REALLY CRAZY IS THE MORE THAT PUTIN SAYS IT, THE MORE HE SAYS I'M REALLY GOING TO DO IT, THE LESS POTENT THE THREAT OF NUCLEAR WAR BECOMES, AND IN FACT IT MAY BE A SIGN OF WEAKNESS, AND MAYBE MAKE NUCLEAR WAR EVEN MORE LIKELY BECAUSE THE THREAT IS DIMINISHED BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE HIM WHEN HE SAYS -- KEEPS SAYING WE MIGHT DO IT.

WE'VE GOT THE POTENTIAL TO DO IT.

BUT THE ADMINISTRATION, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, HAS BEEN VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS, FROM THE START.

THEY'VE BEEN WORRIED ABOUT PUTIN USING A NUCLEAR WEAPON, A TACTICAL NUKE IN UKRAINE IF HIS TROOPS WERE BEING ROUTED ON THE BATTLEFIELD, AS THEY WERE IN LATE 2022.

AND AS I SAY, PUTIN HAS BEEN RATTLING THE STRATEGIC NUCLEAR SABER SINCE THE VERY FIRST DAYS OF THE WAR AS THE THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES TO BACK OFF.

>> YOU WERE AMBASSADOR TO MOSCOW UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND FOR A WHILE UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN.

AND WE TALKED BACK THEN.

BUT I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN TO UKRAINE AND TO RUSSIA IF PRESIDENT TRUMP GETS BACK IN, AND SPECIFICALLY, PRESIDENT TRUMP HOSTED THE HUNGARIAN ILLIBERAL DEMOCRAT AS HE IS CALLED, PRIME MINISTER VIKTOR ORBAN JUST RECENTLY, AND ORBAN CAME OUT AND SAID THAT TRUMP TOLD ME IF HE WINS, HE WON'T GIVE A PENNY TO THIS WAR, HE WON'T GIVE A PENNY TO UKRAINE.

AND FURTHERMORE, HE HAS A VERY DETAILED PLAN TO END THE WAR.

FROM WHAT YOU KNOW, DOES SUCH A THING EXIST, A VERY DETAILED TRUMP PLAN?

AND WHAT HAPPENS IF NOT ONE MORE PENNY GETS TO UKRAINE?

>> WELL, I'M SKEPTICAL THAT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS A DETAILED PLAN TO END THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

THE FORMER PRESIDENT HAS BEEN SUGGESTING THAT THE U.S. -- MORE THAN SUGGESTING, EXPRESSING EXTREME SKEPTICISM ABOUT UNITED STATES SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, WHICH IN MY OPINION, IS VITAL, A, FOR UKRAINE'S CONTINUING SURVIVAL, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, FOR THE STRATEGIC INTEREST, FOREIGN POLICY AND NATIONAL SECURITY INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES.

NOW WHAT WILL PRESIDENT TRUMP DO IF HE IS REELECTED IN NOVEMBER?

HONESTLY, I CAN'T TELL YOU.

WHY?

BECAUSE WHAT I LEARNED -- I SERVED FOR THREE YEARS AS DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE BEFORE I WAS APPOINTED AMBASSADOR BY PRESIDENT TRUMP IN DECEMBER 2019.

PRESIDENT TRUMP IS UNPREDICTABLE.

I NEVER GOT THE SENSE THAT HE HIMSELF HAD ANY WELL FORMED FOREIGN POLICY OR LONG-STANDING VIEWS ON FOREIGN POLICY.

HE'S FLIP-FLOPPED ON ISSUES LIKE WHETHER THE UNITED STATES SHOULD HAVE INVADED IRAQ OR NOT IN 2003.

MY CONCERN IS THAT HE IS UNPREDICTABLE.

AND IT'S OFTEN THE CASE THAT THE LAST LEADER WHO SPEAKS TO HIM, WHO FLATTERS HIM MAY GET THE FINAL SAY AND INFLUENCE HIM THE MOST.

SO I WOULDN'T SAY IT'S LOCKED IN STONE THAT HE WOULD CUT OFF AID TO UKRAINE WHEN HE BECOMES PRESIDENT, IF HE WERE TO BECOME PRESIDENT, BUT IT'S CERTAINLY A SIGNIFICANT RISK AND WOULD HAVE AN INCREDIBLY NEGATIVE EFFECT VIRTUALLY DETERMINATIVE ON THE WAR.

WITHOUT THE SUPPORT OF THE UNITED STATES AND RALLYING EUROPEAN AND OTHER COUNTRIES TO SUPPORT UKRAINE, IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR THE UKRAINIANS TO RESIST THE RUSSIAN MILITARY MACHINE.

>> SO, THEN, BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING AS THIS ELECTION IS UNDER WAY IN RUSSIA, IS THIS AN ELECTION THAT ANYBODY SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT?

WE KNOW HE IS RUNNING PUTIN UNOPPOSED.

THE NOMINAL OPPOSITION ARE JUST NOMINAL, JUST TO BE PLAYING IN THAT GAME.

BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK A CONVINCING CLAIM OF A WIN WILL MEAN FOR HIM IN THE SITUATION HE FINDS HIMSELF IN RIGHT NOW?

>> YEAH, CHRISTIANE, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THERE.

IS NO DOUBT THAT PUTIN IS GOING TO WIN REELECTION, YOU KNOW.

THE VOTING DAY, IN-PERSON VOTING IS ON SUNDAY, THIS COMING SUNDAY, MARCH 17th.

BUT THERE ARE TWO DAYS OF ELECTRONIC VOTING BEFORE THAT.

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT HE IS GOING TO WIN.

AS YOU SAY, HE IS RUNNING EFFECTIVELY UNOPPOSED.

BUT THIS ELECTION IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT FOR HIM, FOR PUTIN, FOR RUSSIA.

AND I WOULD SAY FOR THE WORLD FOR THE FOLLOWING REASON.

HE HAS BEEN WORKING ON THIS, THIS PROJECT, GETTING HIMSELF REELECTED, DESPITE THE RUSSIAN CONSTITUTION'S TERM LIMITS, WHICH WERE IN EFFECT UNTIL HE HAD THE CONSTITUTION REVISED IN 2020, HE HAS BEEN WORKING ON THIS FOR YEARS.

WINNING REELECTION THIS COMING WEEKEND WILL GIVE HIM SIX MORE YEARS IN OFFICE.

BUT HERE IS THE KEY FACTOR FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE.

IT'S TURNOUT.

HE WANTS TO BE ABLE TO TELL THE WORLD, SHOW THE WORLD THAT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE SUPPORT HIM.

THEY TURNED OUT IN LARGE NUMBERS, 75, 80%, AND VOTED FOR HIM.

WHAT THE OPPOSITION IS TRYING TO DO IS TO USE THAT TURNOUT ISSUE AGAINST HIM, AND THERE'S BEEN -- YOU MAY HAVE SEEN AN ORGANIZED EFFORT TO TRY TO CONVINCE THOSE WHO ARE OPPOSED TO PUTIN TO VOTE AT A PARTICULAR TIME ON SUNDAY, NOON ON SUNDAY GOING TO THE POLLS, SHOWING LONG LINES OF PEOPLE AT THIS PRECISE TIME AS OPPOSED TO PUTIN.

SO THE ELECTION COMES DOWN TO TURNOUT.

PUTIN WANTS A LARGE TURNOUT TO VALIDATE, TO CLAIM LEGITIMACY FOR HIS RULE.

BECAUSE OTHERWISE HE DOESN'T HAVE LEGITIMACY.

HE DOESN'T HAVE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE COMMUNIST IDEOLOGY THAT THE SOVIET LEADERS HAD.

HE DOESN'T HAVE THE DIVINE RIGHT OF RULE THE WAY THE CZARS HAVE.

HE SEEKS LEGITIMACY FROM THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE.

THAT'S WHAT HE REALLY CRAVES.

OTHERWISE, HE WOULD JUST DECLARE HIMSELF PRESIDENT.

WHY BOTHER HAVING AN ELECTION?

HE DOESN'T HAVE TO HAVE AN ELECTION TO STAY IN OFFICE.

BUT HE WANTS AN ELECTION TO VALIDATE AND LEGITMATE HIS RULE.

>> AND IT'S SO INTERESTING, BECAUSE HE SEEKS APPROVAL OF A PEOPLE WHO HE IS NOW JAILING AND PUNISHING FOR EXPRESSING ANYTHING ABOUT THE WAR THAT'S NOT THE PARTY LINE.

HIS SPOKESMAN HAS TOLD PEOPLE THAT RUSSIA'S DEMOCRACY IS PERFECT.

BUT OF COURSE THERE ARE NO OPPOSITION, AS WE'VE SPOKEN ABOUT ALEXEI NAVALNY WAS FOUND DEAD, HIS FAMILY ACCUSED THE AUTHORITIES OF HAVING A HAND IN THAT.

AND THIS IS WHAT HIS WIFE YULIA SAID THE DAY HIS DEATH WAS ANNOUNCED.

JUST TAKE A LISTEN.

>> Translator: I WOULD LIKE PUTIN AND ALL HIS STAFF, EVERYBODY AROUND HIM, HIS GOVERNMENT, HIS FRIENDS, I WANT THEM KNOW THAT THEY WILL BE PUNISHED FOR WHAT THEY HAVE DONE WITH OUR COUNTRY, WITH MY FAMILY, AND WITH MY HUSBAND.

THEY WILL BE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE.

AND THIS DAY WILL COME SOON.

>> YOU HEARD YULIA NAVALNAYA.

IS IT FANTASY TO THINK THERE WILL EVER BE A RECKONING ANY TIME SOON FROM WITHIN?

AND IS THERE ANY LIKELIHOOD IN YOUR LONG EXPERIENCE, AND YOU'VE BEEN IN THE ROOM WITH PUTIN ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, THAT THERE COULD BE AN OPPOSITION TO HIM THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE?

>> WELL, SHORT-TERM CLEARLY NOT, AS OUR PRIOR DISCUSSION ABOUT THE ELECTION MAKES CLEAR.

THERE IS NO ORGANIZED OPPOSITION TO REPLACE HIM.

IN A LONGER TERM HORIZON, SURE, THERE IS ALWAYS HOPE.

IF I WERE A BETTING PERSON, I WOULDN'T BE PUTTING A LOT OF MONEY ON THAT PROPOSITION PREVAILING IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS.

BUT IT'S ALWAYS POSSIBLE.

UNLIKELY, BUT POSSIBLE.

>> AND FINALLY, YOU'RE A REPUBLICAN, AND YOU SEE WHAT DONALD TRUMP REPUBLICANS ARE DOING IN CONGRESS ABOUT AID TO UKRAINE.

AND APPEARING TO ACTUALLY BE THROWING THEIR LOT IN, YOU KNOW, WITH PUTIN RATHER THAN THE DEMOCRATIC SOVEREIGN INDEPENDENT UKRAINE, THAT THE REST OF THE WESTERN WORLD IS SUPPORTING.

THIS IS WHAT REPUBLICAN SENATOR RON JOHNSON OF WISCONSIN SAID RECENTLY.

>> WE ARE NOW ABOUT TWO YEARS INTO THIS BLOODBATH.

AND NOW WE'RE IN A BLOODY STALEMATE.

AND THE REALITY I THINK A LOT OF MY COLLEAGUES HERE WHO ARE SUPPORTING THIS AID PACKAGE ARE IGNORING IS THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN WILL NOT LOSE THIS WAR.

>> DOES THAT WORRY YOU?

AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF AMERICA DOESN'T STEP UP, AND IF PUTIN DOESN'T LOSE THIS WAR?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, THIS, IN MY OPINION, SHOULD NOT BE A PARTISAN ISSUE.

THE NATIONAL SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES, OUR FOREIGN POLICY INTERESTS ARE AT STAKE IN UKRAINE, AND WE CAN'T TALK AWAY THE RISK, WE CAN'T WISH AWAY THE RISK, WE CAN'T STICK OUR HEADS IN THE SAND.

WE TRIED THAT TWICE IN THE 20th CENTURY WHEN THERE WAS A WAR IN EUROPE, BEFORE THE GREAT WAR AND BEFORE THE SECOND WORLD WAR, AN WE FAILED.

THIS TYPE OF CONFLICT ON THE EUROPEAN CONTINENT AFFECTS THE UNITED STATES DIRECTLY, PARTICULARLY WHEN THAT WAR HAS BEEN LAUNCHED BY AN AUTOCRAT WHOSE LAUNCHED AN AGGRESSIVE WAR VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL TO THE WAR THAT HITLER STARTED SEPTEMBER 1st, 1939 AGAINST POLAND.

THE SAME RATIONALES WERE USED.

HITLER USED THE SAME LANGUAGE THAT PUTIN USED.

HE STARTED A WAR, HITLER, ON SEPTEMBER 1st, 1939 BECAUSE HE CLALED THAT POLES WERE ABUSING, WERE BARBARIC TOWARDS GERMANS IN POLAND.

THAT WAS HIS RATIONALE.

AND HE CLAIMED POLAND WAS GOING TO ATTACK GERMANY.

WE'VE HEARD HITLER SAY THIS.

HITLER STOOD THE TRUTH ON EDS HEAD.

PUTIN HAS DONE THE SAME THING.

HE LAUNCHED A WAR BECAUSE HE SAID THE UKRAINIANS WERE A BUNCH OF CRAZED NAZIS WHO WERE ENGAGED IN A GENOCIDE AGAINST RUSSIANS IN UKRAINE.

AND THAT'S FANTASY.

THE U.N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY, THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE, COUNTRIES THAT HAVE NO ASSOCIATION WITH NATO OR THE EU VOTED OVERWHELMINGLY AGAINST PUTIN'S RATIONALES FOR THIS WAR.

SO HE HAS LAUNCHED AN AGGRESSIVE WAR ON THE CONTINENT OF EUROPE, THAT AFFECTS U.S.

ALLIES AND THE UNITED STATES DIRECTLY.

THIS IT SEEMS TO ME SHOULD NOT BE A DIFFICULT POLICY AND NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE.

AND IT'S NOT AN ISSUE THAT WE SHOULD BE -- IT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME TO SAY WELL, WE CAN'T HELP UKRAINE BECAUSE WE NEED TO BE SPENDING MONEY TO SECURE OR SOUTHERN BORDER OR DO SOMETHING ELSE.

OF COURSE WE CAN DO BOTH.

THIS IS THE UNITED STATES.

WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO CONTAIN THE SOVIET UNION, PREPARE IN THE COLD WAR.

WHAT KIND OF BACKBONE WOULD OUR LEADERS HAVE NOW?

WE'RE GOING TO ALLOW PUTIN, THE PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA, TO START A MASSIVE WAR ON THE CONTINENT OF EUROPE, AND WE DON'T HAVE THE WHEREWITHAL OR THE COURAGE TO STAND UP TO HIM?

I THINK FOR REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, THEY NEED TO -- THINK ABOUT THIS.

WHAT WOULD HARRY TRUMAN OR DWIGHT EISENHOWER SAY?

WHAT WOULD JACK KENNEDY OR RONALD REAGAN SAY?

WHAT WOULD THEY BE SAYING TO THOSE SENATORS AND MEMBERS TODAY WHO ARE SAYING WE SHOULDN'T SUPPORT UKRAINE?

WHAT THEY'D BE SAYING IS WE SHOULD SUPPORT UKRAINE ALONG WITH OUR ALLIES AND CONTAIN AND DEFEAT THIS RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, PERIOD.

>> ON THAT NOTE, AMBASSADOR JOHN SULLIVAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

>> OUR CONVERSATION EARLIER THIS WEEK.

>>> ANOTHER VICIOUS WAR, THE ONE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS IS THE BACKGROUND FOR A NEW DEFINITION OF EXTREMISM UNVEILED HERE IN THE UK TODAY.

COMMUNITY SECRETARY MICHAEL GOVE SAYS BRITAIN'S INCLUSIVITY AND TOLERANCE ARE BEING CHALLENGED BY EXTREMISM.

BUT CRITICS WONDER IF THE CHANGE COULD ALSO INFRINGE ON FREE SPEECH.

IN THIS ERA OF DEEP POLARIZATION, A NEW PODCAST HOPES TO BRIDGE THE DIVIDE.

IT'S CALLED "A MUSLIM AND A JEW GO THERE."

AND IT'S HOSTED BY TWO WELL-KNOWN BRITISH FIGURES, BARONESS SAYEEDA WARSI, THE FIRST MUSLIM CABINET MINISTER AND AUTHOR OF "THE ENEMY WITHIN: A TALE OF MUSLIM BRITAIN."

AND DAVID BADDIEL, A FAMILIAR FACE ON BRITISH TV AS A LONG-TIME COMEDIAN AND PRESENTER AND MORE RECENTLY AUTHOR OF THE BEST-SELLING BOOK "JEWS DON'T COUNT.""

BOTH ARE HERE WITH ME ON SET.

WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.

IT'S THREE WEEKS SINCE YOUR PODCAST.

TODAY THE THIRD ONE DROPPED, AND IT'S VERY, VERY POPULAR.

ARE YOU SURPRISED, BARONESS WARSI, THIS CONVERSATION YOU'RE HAVING ABOUT ONE OF THE MOST EXPLOSIVE TOPICS ANYWHERE RIGHT NOW IS RESONATING SO MUCH?

>> I'M NOT SURPRISED BECAUSE FOR A WHILE NOW, I'VE BEEN SAYING THAT THE SPACE IN WHICH WE NEED TO HAVE THESE DIFFERENT.

CONVERSATIONS SIMPLY DOESN'T EXIST.

SO FOR ME IN POLITICS, IT'S EITHER IN PARLIAMENT.

AND OFTEN IF YOU WATCH THE COMMENTS, THE POLITICAL POINTS SCORING THAT YOU SEE IN POLITICS.

AND EVEN IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS WHERE THERE IS MUCH MORE SPACE FOR A MEASURED DEBATE, THE TIME SIMPLY IS NOT THERE TO DIRECTLY ENGAGE WITH ANOTHER PERSON OF A DIFFERENT FAITH.

OR ALTERNATIVELY, YOU'RE ON THE BROADCAST MEDIA DOING A 30-SECOND SOUND CLIP.

SO TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO HAVE A LONG FORM CONVERSATION OVER 45 MINUTES ON SOME VERY DIFFICULT ISSUES WHERE YOU CAN BUILD AND MAKE YOUR ARGUMENT, YOU CAN HAVE YOUR ARGUMENT CHALLENGED, AND THEN GO BACK AND HAVE THAT DISCUSSION IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHICH IS FRIENDLY AND COMPASSIONATE AND OPEN SIMPLY DIDN'T EXIST.

SO FOR ME, I THINK THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT PLACE FOR US TO PUSH BACK THOSE BOUNDARIES AND SAY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE OFTEN SAYING WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS.

THIS IS TOO SENSITIVE, DON'T GO THERE.

WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS WELL, WE'RE GOING TO GO THERE.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

>> AND YOU DO.

DAVID BADDIEL, ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THE WAY IT'S TAKEN OFF, BUT MORE TO THE POINT, WHAT THE MISSION STATEMENT?

>> I AM QUITE SURPRISED BECAUSE IT FEELS QUITE A NICHE AT SOME LEVEL.

WE ARE MINORITY COMMUNITIES.

BUT THE REASON IT MIGHT HAVE TAKEN OFF IS THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS, BUT THEY FEEL THEY MIGHT CROSS THE LINE OR WHAT IF WE OFFENDED THIS.

WE'RE GOING TO SAY WHAT WE WANT TO BE, AND THERE WILL BE MOMENTS WHEN PROBABLY WE AOFFEND EACH OTHER, BUT IN THE SAFE SPACE FOR WHATEVER WORD IN THE SPACE OF A PODCAST.

AND IN THAT YOU WILL FIND COMMUNITY AND ALSO DISAGREEMENT.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE CURIOUS AND INTRIGUED BY A CONVERSATION THEY'RE NOT HEARING BEING HEARD, I THINK.

>> AND I WAS KIND OF REALLY INTERESTED BY THE FACT THAT YOU BOTH SAY THAT IT'S ABOUT FINDING DIVERSITY WITHIN EACH OF YOUR COMMUNITIES.

BECAUSE AS YOU SAY, CERTAINLY SOCIAL MEDIA AND THE WHOLE CANCEL CULTURE, AND THE EXTREME EMOTION AROUND WHAT'S GOING ON SORT OF MAKES PEOPLE STAY WITHIN THEIR STRIKE, THEIR SECT, WHATEVER IT IS.

SO IS THERE DIVERSITY?

IS THERE A PLURALITY OF VIEWS, FOR INSTANCE, IN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, LET'S SAY IN GAZA?

>> WELL, THERE CERTAINLY IS.

BUT I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT BEING MINORITIES AS WELL IS YOU GET PICTURED, AS WE SAID OFTEN.

YOU GET TALKED ABOUT BY THE MAJORITY.

THE MAJORITY SEEMS MUSLIMS ARE A AND JEWS ARE B, ESPECIALLY ABOUT ISRAEL AND GAZA.

THAT ISN'T TRUE.

WE SAW THAT WITH JONATHAN GLAZER WHO SAID SOMETHING VERY OUT THERE AND LOTS OF JEWS WON'T AGREE, BUT SOME WILL.

THE POINT ABOUT THAT IS WHETHER YOU AGREE OR NOT, IT'S A DIVERSE RANGE OF OPINIONS.

>> LET'S JUST SAY HE SAID AT THE OSCAR CEREMONY WHERE HE WON FOR HIS UNBELIEVABLE FILM "THE ZONE OF INTEREST" THAT HE IS -- I'M GOING TO PARAPHRASE, REJECTED THE NOTION THAT HIS RELIGION AND THE HOLOCAUST WERE BEING, QUOTE HIJACKED FOR ALL SORTS OF REASONS.

SO IT WAS VERY, VERY OUT THERE.

>> BUT WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THAT OR NOT, THE POINT IS, AS YOU SAY, THERE ARE SOME JEWS WHO REALLY WON'T AGREE WITH THAT AND SOME WHO MIGHT LEAN TOWARDS IT.

A AND THE POINT IS TO THINK THESE HUMAN BEINGS HAVE A RANGE OF OPINIONS.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU AS A MUSLIM WHAT YOU THOUGHT WHEN THAT JEWISH DIRECTOR SAID THAT ABOUT HIS OWN COMMUNITY?

>> -- AND IF WE TALK ABOUT THIS ON THE PODCAST, SO WE HAD VERY I THINK DIFFERENT REACTIONS TO IT.

MY INSTINCT WAS I AM SO PLEASED THAT YOU HAVE USED A HUGE PLATFORM TO TALK ABOUT SUCH AN IMPORTANT ISSUE IN SUCH AN INCREDIBLY BRAVE AND HUMAN WAY.

AND I NEEDED TO HEAR THAT.

AND PART OF THIS PODCAST IS ABOUT US HEARING THE OTHER VIEW.

BECAUSE OFTEN WHEN WE ARE IN OUR OWN TRIBES, WHEN WE ARE IN OUR OWN ECHO CHAMBERS, EVEN WHEN THERE ARE A DIVERSITY OF VIEWS, WE'RE PROBABLY NOT HEARING THEM.

SO I THINK PART OF THIS PODCAST IS FOR US TO OF COURSE BRING OUR OWN OPINIONS TO THE TABLE, BUT ALSO TO REFLECT THE DIVERSITY OF OPINION FROM THE COMMUNITIES FROM WHICH WE COME.

>> I STARTED -- I INTRODUCED YOU BY NEWS TODAY, WHICH IS THIS NEW ANTI-EXTREMISM BILL.

I MEAN, IT'S NOT LAW.

NOBODY IS GOING TO BE FINED OR JAILED.

BUT IT MEANS THAT PEOPLE WHO VIOLATE IT WILL NOT GET GOVERNMENT SUPPORT.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT?

DO YOU AGREE?

AND OF COURSE IT'S ABOUT THE ISLAM PHOBIA AND ANTISEMITISM THAT HAVE EXPLODED RECENTLY.

>> SAYEEDA IS MORE INVOLVED IN THAT SHE IS PUSHING BACK ON THAT BILL.

I WANT TO SEE MORE THE DETAIL OF WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

IT'S A BILL THAT SAYS WE'RE GOING TO TRY AND STOP EXTREMISM, BOTH COMING FROM ISLAMIST QUARTERS AND INDEED FROM THE FAR RIGHT.

AS A JEW, WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THAT, WE GET TARGETED BY BOTH THOSE CAMPS.

SO THEREFORE I'M INTERESTED, OBVIOUSLY, IN ANY ATTEMPT TO STOP THE TARGETING OF JEWS.

WHAT I'M NOT INTERESTED IN IS A VERY WIDE DEFINITION OF EXTREMISM THAT DOESN'T REALLY HELP JEWS, BUT IS JUST DESIGNED TO STIGMATIZE CERTAIN GROUPS, WHICH OBVIOUSLY IT MIGHT BE.

I THINK THE TRUTH IS IN THE DETAIL, AND I HAVEN'T REALLY SEEN THAT DETAIL.

>> HAVE YOU SEEN THE DETAIL?

>> I HAVE SEEN THE DETAIL.

AND IT IS WHAT I SAW OVER 15 YEARS AGO.

THIS IS MICHAEL'S LITTLE KITE THAT HE HAS BEEN FLYING FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.

AND IT'S NOT LEGISLATIVE.

IT'S NOT LEGALLY BINDING.

IT HAS NO BASIS IN LAW.

IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY STATUTORY BASES.

SO THIS IS MICHAEL LITERALLY FLYING HIS OWN LITTLE KITE SAYING THERE ARE CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO I DON'T LIKE, WHOSE VIEWS I DON'T LIKE, AND THEREFORE I'M GOING TO CREATE A LITTLE GROUPING IN MY DEPARTMENT WHO WILL MAKE JUDGMENTS, JUDGE, JURY, AND EXECUTION ON INDIVIDUAL GROUPS AND ORGANIZATIONS.

>> WORRY ALL GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT IT NEXT WEEK.

>> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MICHAEL GOVE COMMUNITY SECRETARY, MR. BREXIT ALONG WITH BORIS JOHNSON.

JUST A QUICK, IS THERE ANY WAY IT COULD SOFTEN THE PUBLIC DEBATE, IT COULD PROTECT PEOPLE?

OR DO YOU THINK NO?

>> WELL, ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS WE WERE LOOKING AT JUST BEFORE WE CAME IN WAS A CLIP FROM A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT WHO ASKED HIM -- WHO ASKED MICHAEL GOVE AT THE DISPATCH BOX A VERY SPECIFIC QUESTION ABOUT A VERY SPECIFIC EXTREMIST MOMENT, A TWEET THAT WAS LIKED BY SOMEBODY WHO HAD GIVEN MONEY TO HIM, MICHAEL GOVE, SECRETARY OF STATE, AND WAS A CONSERVATIVE DONOR.

AND HE DIDN'T DEAL WITH THE SHOW OF EXTREMISM.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE TALK ABOUT IN THE CURRENT PODCAST IS THE CONCEPT OF RULE OF LAW IN THE UNITED KINGDOM IS ABOUT HAVING THE SAME LAWS FOR EVERY COMMUNITY WITHOUT FEAR OR FAVOR.

WE APPLY THEM CONSISTENTLY.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK WHAT MICHAEL IS TRYING TO DO, AND I KNOW FROM HAVING SAT AROUND THE TABLE HE HAS TRIED TO DO FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, IS TO HAVE SPECIFIC LEGISLATION TO TARGET SPECIFIC COMMUNITIES, AND THAT'S A VERY DANGEROUS PATH TO GO DOWN.

>> AND AS WE'VE SEEN, WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT IS ALSO VERY RAMPANT IN THE UNITED STATES.

SPEECH, HATE SPEECH, ANY KIND OF SPEECH ON CAMPUSES AND THE REST AS BEEN VERY HEAVILY CONDEMNED ON ALL SIDES, AND A LOT OF CANCEL CULTURE GOING ON.

YOU TALKED ABOUT THE OTHER, RECOGNIZING AND EMPATHIZING AND I SPOKE TO AN AMERICAN RABBI AT THE HEIGHT -- I MEAN, IT'S STILL THE HEIGHT OF THIS WAR.

BUT EARLY ON, A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO.

SHE IS SHARON BOUS FROM LOS ANGELES.

>> WE HAVE MECHANISMS FOR TEACHING US WHO THE LEAN INTO THE DISCOMFORT OF CONVERSATIONS THAT DON'T FEEL NATURAL TO US, WHERE WE FEEL WE MIGHT EVEN BE LOSING SOMETHING OF OUR OWN VICTIMHOOD IF WE HEAR SOMEONE ELSE'S PAIN.

BUT IN FACT IT'S ONLY WHEN WE HEAR ONE ANOTHER'S PAIN AND WHEN WE LIFT UP AND AFFIRM EACH OTHER'S HUMANITY THAT WE CAN COLLECTIVELY WALK TOWARDS A SHARED LIBERATION WITH ONE ANOTHER.

>> THAT'S BRILLIANT.

I FIND MYSELF BEING QUITE MOVED TO THAT, A RABBI SAYING THAT.

ACTUALLY, MY EXPERIENCE DURING THE PODCAST IS SOMETIMES I'M LISTENING TO SAYEEDA, AND I HAVE TO CONTAIN MY OWN INSTINCTS, WHICH CAN BE QUITE PRIMITIVE.

AND NO, JUST LISTEN FOR A BIT AND LET HER HAVE THE SPACE.

IT DOESN'T MEAN I DO ALWAYS AGREE, BUT I THINK THE RABBI IS RIGHT.

YOU HAVE TO SOMETIMES FEEL YOU'RE LOSING SOMETHING, BUT YOU'RE PROBABLY GAINING SOMETHING AS WELL.

>> AND JUST UNDERSTANDING THE OTHER.

YOU DO A LOT OF REACHING OUT TO DAVID, ASKING HOW HE IS FEELING.

AND YOU DO HAVE TECHNIQUES THAT I FIND ACTUALLY INTERESTING TO TRY TO GET EACH OTHER'S STORY.

>> WE DO.

AND I THINK THERE WAS ONE MOMENT WHEN WE FIRST STARTED RECORDING THE PODCAST, AND IT WAS AN INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT ONE WHEN WE WERE IN THE EARLY STAGES OF THIS.

AND AT THE END OF IT, I FELT THE NEED TO COME OVER AND GIVE YOU A REALLY BIG HUG, AND I SAID "ARE YOU ALL RIGHT?"

WE JOKED ABOUT IT WHERE.

WE WERE RECORDING IS A REALLY GREAT BAGEL SHOP.

WE GOT A BAGEL.

LOOK, WE'VE HAD A BAGEL, AND THIS FEELS LIKE A REALLY GOOD THERAPEUTIC SESSION.

SO WHATEVER COMES OF THE PODCAST, HOPEFULLY WE'LL FEEL BETTER FOR IT.

>> IT IS RAMADAN NOW.

SHE HAS INVITED ME TO HER HOUSE QUITE A LONG WAY FROM LONDON IN WAKEFIELD FOR IFTAR.

AND THE TROUBLE WITH THAT I'LL HAVE TO FAST ALL DAY, WHICH IS NOT NORMAL FOR JEWS EXCEPT ON YOM KIPPUR DAY.

>> YOU'RE NOT VERY RELIGIOUS.

>> I'M AN ATHEIST, WHICH CONFUSES PEOPLE A LOT.

I BELIEVE IN GOD, I BELIEVE IN LARRY DAVID.

I'M JUST A JEW, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD.

HOWEVER, HE WILL FAST, BECAUSE IT'S GOOD FOR MY HEALTH, AND I WANT TO HAVE THAT MOMENT WITH SAYEEDA.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF YOU REALIZE THAT IT MEANS NO WATER EITHER.

NO DRINK EITHER FROM SUNRISE TO SUNDOWN.

>> I'M GOING MAKE HIM FAST ON YOM KIPPUR, AND I'M GOING TO DO THAT WITH YOU, RIGHT.

I WILL MAKE SURE THAT AT THE END OF THIS PODCAST, HE WILL BE A VERY GOOD JEWISH MAN.

>> SLIGHTLY MORE SOMBERLY, RAMADAN FALLS THIS YEAR WHEN ALL THE WORLD'S MUSLIMS AND MANY OTHERS ARE CONCERNED, VERY WORRIED, VERY UPSET ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING TO MUSLIMS, GAZAN PEOPLE, PALESTINIANS.

HOW IS RAMADAN AFFECTED YOU AND YOUR FAMILY THIS YEAR?

OR HOW HAS THAT AFFECTED YOUR RAMADAN?

>> SO YESTERDAY EVENING WE HAD AN IFTAR AT PARLIAMENT WE HAVE EVERY YEAR.

IT'S ALWAYS A REALLY VIBRANT, LOUD EVENT, AND THERE IS A LOT OF LAUGHTER.

AND YESTERDAY IT WAS INCREDIBLY SUBDUED.

AND I ADDRESSED THAT IN MY SPEECH LAST NIGHT.

AND I SAID, YOU KNOW, I UNDERSTAND THE COLLECTIVE TRAUMA THAT BRITISH MUSLIMS ARE FEELING WHEN THEY LOOK ACROSS AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA AND SEE A POPULATION UNDER SIEGE ON THE BRINK OF FAMINE, HAVING TO DEAL WITH CONTAMINATED WATER.

WE TALK ABOUT THIS ON THE PODCAST.

BECAUSE IN THE MORNING, AS YOU'RE HAVING YOUR MEAL, YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT GAZA.

WHEN YOU'RE HAVING YOUR IFTAR, YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT GAZA.

IT'S IMPORTANT FOR ME TO EXPRESS THAT IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS WE TALK ABOUT ON THE PODCAST TO SAY THIS IS HOW OUR RAMADAN FEELS THIS YEAR.

IT FEELS VERY DIFFERENT.

IT FEELS SUBDUED.

IT FEELS ANY SENSE OF CELEBRATION IS INAPPROPRIATE.

BUT THE POSITIVES THAT HAVE COME OUT OF IT IS THE BRITISH MUSLIM COMMUNITY, AS MUSLIM COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE WORLD USE THE MONTH OF RAMADAN TO GIVE GENEROUSLY TO CHARITY.

ON AVERAGE A COMMUNITY OF FOUR MILLION IN THE UNITED KINGDOM RAISES OVER 150 MILLION POUNDS JUST IN THE MONTH OF RAMADAN.

AND I'M ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED THIS WILL BE A HUGE YEAR DESPITE ALL THE ISSUES AROUND THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS AND WHAT INDIVIDUAL FAMILIES ARE FEELING.

BECAUSE THE LEVEL OF GENEROSITY IN GIVING THIS YEAR SPECIFICALLY FOR GAZA HAVE BEEN AMAZING AND INSPIRING TO SEE.

>> DAVID, I SPOKE TO THE GREAT WRITER AND THINK HARARE.

I THINK IT WAS FIVE DAYS AFTER THE SLAUGHTER OF OCTOBER 7th.

AND HE HAD STARTED TO WRITE, AND I HAD ASKED HIM BECAUSE OF THE INABILITY TO SPEAK AND HAVE ANY KIND OF NOT NUANCE, BUT CONTEXT IN PUBLIC WITHOUT GETTING SORT OF CANCELED WHETHER ONE COULD HOLD TWO THOUGHTS IN YOUR HEAD AT THE SAME TIME, THAT THIS IS HORRENDOUS AND THAT IS HORRENDOUS.

NOT BUT, AND.

HERE IS WHAT HE TOLD ME.

I'D LIKE YOUR REACTION.

>> SHOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU CAN BE VICTIM AND PERPETRATOR AT THE SAME TIME.

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO MOST PEOPLE IN HISTORY, MOST NATIONS IN HISTORY.

THERE ARE SOMETIMES VICTIMS, THEY ARE SOMETIMES PERPETRATORS.

THEY ARE SOMETIMES BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

BUT THIS IS A KIND OF COMPLEXITY THAT ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU STAND THOUSANDS OF KILOMETERS FROM THE CONFLICT, YOU CAN SEE IT.

>> YEAH, WELL, WHAT HARARI IS SAYING IS THE TRUTH IS ALWAYS COMPLEX.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE LIVE IN A TIME, PARTICULARLY WITH SOCIAL MEDIA, AND SOCIAL MEDIA HAS A VERY SIMPLISTIC IDEA OF IDENTITY AND TRIBALISM WHERE IT'S BEING DENIED.

ONE OF THE WAYS IT IS DENIED THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE PRO-PALESTINIAN REFUSING TO ACCEPT THE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th.

AND OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN ACCEPT THAT.

IT OBVIOUSLY DID HAPPEN WHILST IN NO WAY MOVING AWAY FROM YOUR SUPPORT OF THE PALESTINIANS OR YOUR SIMPLE THINK FOR THE GAZANS AT THE MOMENT.

AND I THINK SOME JEWS ARE ABLE TO ACCEPT THAT TOO.

BUT SOMETIMES IT CAN FEEL JEWS BECOME TOO EMBATTLED AND PROTECTIVE AND DEFENSIVE AROUND THE ISRAELI CAUSE THAT THEY CAN'T DO IT.

I THINK AT THESE TIMES YOU SEE A NARROWING OF TRUTH.

WE'RE TRYING TO KEEP THE COMPLEX DOOR OPEN.

>> FINALLY, THERE IS GOING TO BE AN ELECTION IN THIS COUNTRY THIS YEAR.

I DON'T KNOW WHEN YOU THINK IT MIGHT BE.

BUT HOW IS THIS ALL GOING TO PLAY IN?

AND HOW DO YOU HOPE YOUR DISCUSSION PLAYS INTO THE BROADER POLITICAL AND SOCIAL CULTURE HERE?

>> I THINK IN LIGHT OF WHAT I'M SEEING AT THE MOMENT, I WOULD LIKE THERE TO BE A QUICK, SHORT, SHARP ELECTION.

I WOULD LIKE THE PRIME MINISTER TO CALL IT AS QUICK LAZE POSSIBLE, AND WE NEED TO GET IT OVER WITH AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, AND WE NEED TO HAVE A CLEAR SENSE OF WHERE THE COUNTRY IS HEADING, AND WHETHER WHERE THAT PERSON IN CHARGE HAS A POLITICAL MANDATE.

THE WORRY IS THE LONGER WE LEAVE IT, IT WILL BE QUITE A LONG AND TOXIC AND CULTURE WAR INSPIRED ELECTION, WHETHER IT WILL BE A NOT OF VERY NICE THINGS SAID BY PLIGTSS, AND I THINK THAT WILL THEN HAVE A REAL-LIFE IMPACT ON THE GROUND.

SO I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS WE DO THROUGH THIS PODCAST IS TAKE SOME OF THAT POLITICKING, BUT THEN TRANSLATE IT INTO REAL LIVE CONVERSATIONS AND HOPE THAT WE CAN PROVIDE SOME LEVEL OF SANITY AND LOGIC TO WHAT MAY BE COMING OUT OF POLITICS.

>> WELL, IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING CONVERSATION YOU'RE HAVING IN PUBLIC ON A VERY, VERY DIFFICULT SUBJECT, A MUSLIM AND A JEW.

>> SAYEEDA WARSI, DAVE, THANK YOU FOR GOING THERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WE'VE ALREADY SEIZE DIGITALLY MANIPULATED DEEPFAKES INFILTRATING THE 2024 ELECTION CYCLE.

JUST HOW WILL IT IMPACT VOTERS?

SAM GREGORY AND CLAIRE WARDLE, WHO IS CO-DIRECTOR OF THE INFORMATION FUTURES LAB AT BROWN UNIVERSITY ARE DISINFORMATION EXPERTS, AND THEY'RE JOINING HARI SREENIVASAN NOW TO DISCUSS WHAT'S AT STAKE POLITICALLY AND TECHNOLOGICALLY.

AND A NOTE.

THIS CONVERSATION IS PART OF THE WNET STREAMING SERIES "TAKE ON FAKE," WHICH ANALYZES FAKE OR ALTERED VIDEO, IMAGES AND AUDIO TO DEBUNK THE VIRAL SPREAD OF MISINFORMATION AND TO TRY TO GET TO THE TRUTH.

AS YOU'LL SEE, WE HAVE USED GRAPHICS TO IDENTIFY THE FAKES AND TO HELP PREVENT THEM FROM BEING USED FURTHER IN A MISLEADING WAY.

AT A TIME WHEN THERE ARE SO MANY CRITICAL CHOICES, OUR GOAL IS TO HELP YOU SEPARATE FACT FROM FICTION.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

SAM GREGORY, CLAIRE WARDLE, THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

YOU ARE BOTH EXPERTS IN STUDYING MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION.

WE WANT TO HELP OUR AUDIENCE UNPACK NOT JUST SOME EXAMPLES, BUT MAYBE WHAT THEY CAN LEARN FROM HOW TO PROCESS INFORMATION SO THAT THEY DON'T GET TAKEN FOR A RIDE, ESPECIALLY DURING THIS ELECTION YEAR.

CLAIRE, I WANT TO START WITH YOU.

IN THE LONGER ARC OF MISINFORMATION, WHERE IS IT WHEN IT COMES TO DISINFORMATION OR MISINFORMATION ONLINE?

BECAUSE AROUND ELECTION YEARS, LIES ARE PRETTY COMMON.

AND MAKING THE OTHER TEAM OUT TO BE HORRIBLE IS JUST PAR FOR THE COURSE.

BUT HOW IS THIS CHANGING IN THIS LIDGE TALL LANDSCAPE?

>> THE WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN NOW MEANS THAT IT'S MUCH EASIER THAN EVER TO CREATE THIS KIND OF CONTENT, AND MUCH, MUCH EASIER TO SPREAD IT.

BUT YOU'RE RIGHT.

LIES, AS HUMANS, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'RE USED TO.

BUT WHAT WE'RE NOT USED TO IS THE AMOUNT OF CONTENT AND HOW FAST IT CAN SPREAD.

>> SAM, I WANT TO TELL OUR AUDIENCE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR WORK AT WITNESS.

IT'S A HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION THAT TRIES TO USE VIDEO TO DEFEND PEOPLE'S HUMAN RIGHTS.

BUT YOU'RE ALSO TRYING TO USE TECHNOLOGY TO MAKE SURE THAT VIDEOS ARE NOT UNDERMINING THOSE BASIC RIGHTS AS WELL.

AND YOU'VE GOT YOURSELF A DEEPFAKE RAPID RESPONSE FORCE, FOR EXAMPLE.

HOW DO YOU -- WHAT ARE THE TOOLS THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO YOU TO TRY TO VET THESE VIDEOS THAT CAN BE GENERATED SO QUICKLY, AS CLAIRE SAID?

>> A REALLY COMPLICATED ANSWER.

IT'S SUPER EASY TO CREATE CERTAIN FORMS OF PHOTO REALISTIC AND AUDIO LIKE THE BIDEN ROBOCALL.

BUT IT'S NOT SUPER EASY TO TECHNICALLY DETECT THEM YET.

AND THAT CAPACITY ISN'T WITH MOST ORDINARY PEOPLE AND MOST JOURNALISTS.

WHAT WE WORK ON REALLY IS HOW DO WE BRIDGE THE GAP THAT'S EXISTING NOW IN TERMS OF THE TECHNOLOGIES AND TOOLS THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO OUR FRONT LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION BECAUSE THE TECHNOLOGIES AREN'T THERE YET.

I WOULD ECHO WHAT CLAIRE SAYS.

WHEN WE START TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE DETECT AI, WE NEED TO START WITH RECOGNIZING THAT THIS BUILDS ON PREVIOUS PROBLEMS, AND WE NEED TO BUILD ON PREVIOUS SOLUTIONS AS WELL.

>> I WANT TO SHARE A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES OF IMAGES THAT WERE CREATED USING AI TOOLS THESE WERE GENERATED BY THIRD PARTIES NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN AT ALL.

BUT JUST IN THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, THERE WERE THESE PHOTOS HERE OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHO IS IT LOOKS LIKE A CHRISTMAS PARTY WITH A BUNCH OF AFRICAN AMERICAN VOTERS.

THEY LOOK LIKE THEY'RE HAVING A GOOD TIME.

AND IF YOU WEREN'T CAREFUL ENOUGH TO LOOK AT THE HAT AND SEE THE MISSPELLINGS AND TRY TO LOOK FOR SOMETHING, YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT WOW, HE IS AT A CHRISTMAS PARTY WITH A BUNCH OF AFRICAN AMERICANS.

AND THEN THERE WAS ANOTHER PHOTO OF HIM WITH A GROUP OF YOUNG MEN.

NOW, I WANT TO SAY, A CAVEAT TO OUR AUDIENCE THAT WE'RE TRYING TO BE CAREFUL.

WE'LL DEFINITELY BE FRAMING THESE ONLINE AND ON AIR WITH VERY VISUAL, EASY TO SPOT CAPTIONS.

WE DON'T WANT TO AMPLIFY DISINFORMATION.

AND CLAIRE, I WANT TO ASK, LOOK, WHAT IS THE HARM IN THESE?

ON THE ONE HAND, WE KNOW THAT THESE WERE NOT REAL HUMAN BEINGS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, LOOK, PRESIDENT TRUMP DOES HAVE SUPPORT FROM REAL LIFE AFRICAN AMERICANS, RIGHT.

SO WHERE IS THE DANGER HERE?

>> THE FIRST THING I'LL SAY IS THIS WAS GENERATED BY AI.

BUT THE SAME KIND OF CONTENT COULD HAVE BEEN CREATED WITH MORE BASIC EDITING.

FIRST OF ALL SAY THAT THE SECOND THING, IF WE AS A SOCIETY SAY IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER, DOES IT?

HE DOES HAVE SOME FRIENDS.

THIS COULD HAVE BEEN THE CASE.

THEN WE KIND OF LOSE THE FOUNDATION ON WHICH WE'RE ALL MAKING DECISIONS AND UNDERSTANDING THE WORLD AROUND US.

EVEN IN THESE KIND OF EXAMPLES, WHAT'S THE HARM, THERE IS HARM IN THE IDEA THAT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO TRUST.

IF PEOPLE JUST GO IT DOESN'T MATTER.

SO I THINK WE HAVE TO LABEL, WE HAVE TO MAKE IT CLEAR WHEN THIS IS AI-GENERATED OR IF IT'S BEEN PHOTO SHOPPED, IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE KNOW AND HAVE AN ACCURATE HISTORICAL RECORD OF WHAT ACTUALLY DID HAPPEN OR NOT.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO KEEP REMINDING EACH OTHER.

MANY INFORMATION ACTORS DO NOT HAVE A VERY BIG AUDIENCE.

THEY MIGHT BE A NICHE AND HAVE A COUPLE PEOPLE THAT FOLLOW THEM.

WHAT THEY'RE DESPERATE IS THE MEGAPHONE THAT THE MEDIA BRINGS.

SO MUCH OF THE TACTICS AND TECHNIQUES IS NOT PARTICULARLY CLEVER USE OF TECHNOLOGY.

THE VULNERABILITY IS HOW CAN I GET THE MEDIA TO COVER IT, HOW CAN I GET THE OUTRAGE, HOW CAN I GET PEOPLE TO HATE, LIKE IT ON TWITTER?

AND THAT'S WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT.

ULTIMATELY HAVING OUR BRAINS HIJACKED.

THE ATTENTION ECONOMY IS ALL ABOUT THAT.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, THAT IS A BIGGER PROBLEM I THINK THAN THE TECHNOLOGY ITSELF.

>> CLAIRE, I WANT TO ASK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE BIDEN ROBOCALL THAT BECAME QUITE FAMOUS BEFORE THE NEW HAMPSHIRE PRIMARIES.

THAT'S A LONG WAYS AWAY FROM THE GENERAL ELECTION.

I THINK IT WAS THE FIRST TIME A LOT OF PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD HOW GOOD THE TECHNOLOGY WAS.

AND I WANT TO ROLL IN A CLIP OF THIS AUDIO HERE.

AND THIS IS REALLY NOT JOE BIDEN'S VOICE, AGAIN, FOR OUR AUDIENCE.

THIS IS A PIECE OF AI-GENERATED AUDIO THAT IS NOT THE PRESIDENT.

>> WHAT A BUNCH OF MALARKEY.

WE KNOW THE VALUE OF VOTING DEMOCRATIC WHEN THE VOTES COUNT.

IT'S IMPORTANT THAT YOU SHADE YOUR VOTE FOR THE NOVEMBER ELECTIONS.

WE'LL NEED YOUR HELP.

VOTING ONLY ENABLES THE REPUBLICANS IN THEIR QUEST TO ELECT DONALD TRUMP AGAIN.

>> THAT IS ALLEGEDLY THE VOICE, WHICH IS NOT THE VOICE OF JOE BIDEN, ASKING PEOPLE NOT TO GO OUT AND VOTE.

I MEAN THAT'S A PRETTY POWERFUL TOOL WHEN IT COMES TO A CLOSE ELECTION, WHETHER IT'S IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, THE GENERAL ELECTION.

SO, CLAIRE, I WONDER, WHAT ARE YOU STUDYING WHEN IT COMES TO HOW AUDIO IS BEING USED TO MANIPULATE PEOPLE?

BECAUSE HONESTLY, FOR MOST PEOPLE, IF IT WASN'T THE CONTENT THAT WAS A LITTLE SUSPICIOUS, I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT WAS JOE BIDEN'S VOICE.

>> YEP.

AND AS SOME HAVE SAID, UNFORTUNATELY, WE SEE GENERATIVE AUDIO MESSAGES USED QUITE FREQUENTLY, BECAUSE ACTUALLY EYES ARE VERY GOOD, BUT OUR EARS ARE WORSE.

WE DON'T HAVE GOOD CHECKS IN TERMS OF SAYING IS THAT REAL NORTH?

WHEN IT COMES TO SCAMS, IN OTHER COUNTRIES YOU GET A CALL AND IT SOUNDS LIKE YOUR SISTER OR MOM, THEY'RE IN TROUBLE.

SO WE HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT WELL-KNOWN VOICES.

BUT THE OTHER CONCERN HERE IS BY THE FAMILY AND FRIENDS, I WOULD ARGUE IN ELECTION CONTEXT, THE WORRY IS THE USE OF LOCAL TRUSTED MESSENGERS.

MAYBE A LOCAL FAITH LEADER WHOSE VOICE GETS USED TO SAY I WOULDN'T BOTHER VOTING, OR I'M WORRIED IF YOU VOTE IT MIGHT BE DANGEROUS.

SO THAT DOES MEAN IN THIS AWARE OF HOW OUR COMMUNITIES MIGHT BE POTENTIALLY AT RISK THROUGH SOME OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES, NOT MAKING PEOPLE OVERLY CONCERNED, BUT TO SAY THAT IS A POTENTIAL THREAT.

LET'S BE AWARE IF YOU HEAR SOMETHING, DOUBLE-CHECK IT BEFORE YOU JUST TRUST IT IMPLICITLY.

>> SAM, WHAT'S YOUR TIP TO PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO AUDIO?

WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR US TO DISCERN THOSE FACTS FROM FICTION?

>> THE FIRST THING WE SAY, AND UNFORTUNATELY ALL THE BLAME OR PRESSURE ON THEM TO DETECT A LITTLE GLITCH IN THE AUDIO OR SPOT SOMETHING IN ONE OF THE IMAGES WE JUST SAW.

THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT STRATEGY IN THE LONG RUN.

THESE KEEP GETTING BETTER.

THERE ARE GLITCHES.

IF WE LISTEN CLOSELY, THERE ARE THINGS WE MIGHT HEAR AS AN EXPERT.

FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE TO TAKE THE PRESSURE OFF PEOPLE TO SAY LOOK OUT FOR THE GLITCH.

THAT MAKES IT HARD BECAUSE THAT MEANS THE FIRST STRATEGY WHEN WE LISTEN TO SOMETHING IS JUST TO LISTEN CLOSE.

IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY WORK WELL.

IT'S PARTICULARLY HARD, THEN, TO DO NEXT STAGE WITH AUDIO, WHICH IS FOR EXAMPLE TO SEE IF THIS COMES FROM A MANIPULATED ORIGINAL OR SOMETHING ELSE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE DONALD TRUMP AI IMAGES BEFORE, YOU COULD DO A REVERSE IMAGE SEARCH.

YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH AUDIO.

WE DON'T HAVE A WAY TO SEARCH FOR OTHER AUDIO SOURCES.

>> SAM, YOU'VE ALSO BEEN LOOKING INTO WHAT YOU CALL RESURRECTION DEEPFAKES.

WE SAW THIS REALLY BEING PLAYED OUT IN THE INDONESIAN ELECTIONS.

EXPLAIN WHAT THIS AI TREND IS.

>> THIS IS A TREND TWO OR THREE YEARS.

WHEN YOU RECREATE SOMEONE WHO HAS PASSED AND USED THEM TYPICALLY FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES.

SO WE'VE SEEN RESURRECTED JOURNALISTS STATE VIOLENCE IN MEXICO, DECEASED PEOPLE FROM THE PARKLAND SHOOTINGS TALKING FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE.

AND MOST RECENTLY IN THE INDONESIA ELECTION, ONE OF THE PARTIES BROUGHT BACK THE FORMER INDONESIAN DICTATOR, SUHARTO, TO ASK THE PEOPLE TO SUPPORT THE PARTY.

AND IT'S VERY COMPLICATED, BECAUSE IT'S ALL ABOUT TAKING SOMEONE'S PREVIOUS PRESENCE AND MAKING THEM SAY THINGS THEY NEVER SAID IN REAL LIFE.

IT GOES BACK TO A LOT OF ISSUES THAT REALLY WE NEED TO GRAPPLE WITH WHEN WE LOOK AT AI IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN ABOUT CONSENT, WHO CONSENTS TO THE USE OF THESE IMAGES, AND TURNS THEM INTO THIS AUDIO AND THIS VIDEO, AND DISCLOSURE.

>> THERE IS RECENTLY A DEEPFAKE THAT WENT AROUND.

AND I WANT TO PLAY A CLIP OF IT.

THIS IS FROM PAUL HARVEY, WHO WAS A RESPECTED BROADCASTER, WHO WORKED IN THE UNITED STATES FOR DECADES.

HE HAD A REALLY SIGNATURE SOUND.

AND HE MADE A SPEECH ONCE, WHICH WAS COMPLETELY MANIPULATED FOR POLITICAL GAIN HERE.

LET'S ROLL THIS.

>> AND ON JUNE 14th, 1946, GOD LOOKED DOWN ON HIS PLANNED PARADISE AND SAID I NEED A CARETAKER.

SO GOD GAVE US TRUMP.

GOD SAID I NEED SOMEBODY WILLING TO GET UP BEFORE DAWN, FIX THIS COUNTRY, WORK ALL DAY, FIGHT THE MARXISTS, EAT SUPPER, THEN GO TO THE OVAL OFFICE AND STAY PAST MIDNIGHT AT A MEETING OF THE HEADS OF STATE.

SO GOD MADE TRUMP.

>> CLAIRE, ORIGINALLY, PAUL HARVEY HAD MADE THAT SPEECH, AND IT WAS GOD MADE FARMERS.

IT WAS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SPEECH THAT HAS BEEN ALTERED.

PAUL HARVEY DIED IN 2009.

THIS WAS NOT DONE WITH HIS CONSENT.

AND I WONDER HOW MUCH OF THIS NOTION OF NOSTALGIA AND EMOTION FACTORS INTO WHETHER A PIECE OF MISINFORMATION OR DISINFORMATION SEEMS MORE BELIEVABLE.

>> WE KNOW THIS FROM PSYCHOLOGICAL STUDIES AND THE WAY OUR BRAINS WORK WE RELY VERY MUCH ON HEUERISTICS, PARTICULARLY AT A TIME WHEN WE'RE OVERWHELMED.

WHEN WE HAVE HEARD A VOICE BEFORE OR IT REMINDS US OF SOMETHING, EVEN IN MISINFORMATION, THE MORE YOU SEE SOMETHING, EVEN IF IT'S FACT-CHECKED, THERE IS SOMETHING TO THAT.

SO THIS KIND OF PLAYBACK, THIS NOSTALGIA, OH, I'VE HEARD THAT VOICE BEFORE AND I TRUSTED IT BEFORE, ALL OF THAT IS EXCEPTIONALLY POWERFUL.

SO WE'RE SEEING A PATTERN HERE OF RELYING ON ANOTHER TIME AND THE WAYS THAT PEOPLE HAVE FEELINGS AROUND EARLIER POLITICAL MOMENTS THAT WERE LESS CHARGED OR FIGURES THAT PEOPLE HAD RELATIONSHIPS WITH.

THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE.

AND I WOULD ARGUE IT'S EXCEPTIONALLY POWERFUL.

>> SAM, WE'RE ALSO STARTING TO SEE POLITICIANS USE TECHNOLOGY AS SORT OF AN EXCUSE TO COVER UP THINGS THAT ACTUALLY MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED.

THERE WAS A LINCOLN PROJECT VIDEO, AND IT SHOWED -- WELL, LET ME JUST ROLL THAT CLIP HERE.

>> HEY, DONALD, WE NOTICED SOMETHING.

MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE SAYING IT.

YOU'RE WEAK.

YOU SEEM UNSTEADY.

YOU NEED HELP GETTING AROUND.

AND WOW.

>> AN -- >> SAM, WHAT'S INTERESTING IS RIGHT AFTER THAT COMPILATION OF VIDEOS THAT THE LINCOLN PROJECT TEAM HAD ASSEMBLED OF PRESIDENT TRUMP LOOKING THESE WAYS AND TAKING THESE EXCERPTS, HE WENT ON THE HIS OWN SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM AND SAID, LOOK, THIS IS, QUOTE -- THESE ARE LOSERS.

THEY'RE USING AI, THAT THIS IS ALL FAKE TV COMMERCIALS.

AND I WONDER WHETHER OR NOT THIS KIND OF PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY CHANGES OUR UNDERSTANDING AND EXPECTATION OF WHAT IS REAL AND WHAT IS NOT.

HOW DO WE MAINTAIN SOME INTEGRITY THAT THERE IS A REAL FACT VERSUS WHAT'S MANIPULATED?

IT SEEMS THAT IF YOU SEE 20 OF THESE EXAMPLES, AFTER A WHILE, JURY GOING TO ASSUME IT'S ALL BAD.

>> THIS IS A PHENOMENON WE'RE SEEING GLOBALLY OF THIS PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.

AND IT REALLY RELIES ON THE FACT THAT PEOPLE ARE OFTEN CONFUSED WHAT AI CAN DO, AND THEY'RE CONFUSED ABOUT THEIR ABILITY TO DETECT OR DISCERN IT.

SO IT'S INCREDIBLY EASY FOR PEOPLE IN POWERFUL WHEN THERE IS SOMETHING COMPROMISING TO SAY HEY, AI COULD HAVE MADE IT.

HEY, AI IS CAPABLE OF THIS.

TO SOME EXTENT THAT'S NOT TRUE.

SOME EXAMPLES WE SEE ARE PEOPLE EXPLOITING OUR FEARS OF AI VERSUS THE REALITY.

BUT IT ALSO TIES INTO PEOPLE'S VERY DEEP SENSE THAT MAYBE THEY WERE FOOLED BY THE POPE IN THE PUFFER JACKET, A SENSE THAT MAYBE WE CAN'T DISCERN.

THIS IS REALLY CHALLENGING PHENOMENON ALSO BECAUSE IT'S VERY EASY TO SAY YOU CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IMAGE, THIS AUDIO, OR YOU CAN'T BELIEVE ANY IMAGE OR AUDIO, BUT IT'S INCREASINGLY HARD TO CONCLUSIVELY PROVE THAT SOMETHING WAS MADE WITH AI.

ONE OF THE EXPERIENCES WE'VE HAD IN DEEPFAKE'S RAPID RESPONSE FORCE, WE'LL GET CASES WHERE SOMEONE HAS BEEN CAUGHT ON A COMPROMISING TAPE, AND THEY SAY SOMETHING, AND THEN THEY INSTANTLY COME OUT AND SAY THIS WAS MADE IN AI WHEN IT BECOMES PUBLIC.

AND IT MAY TAKE SEVERAL DAYS FOR EXPERTS TO VERIFY THAT IT 90% LIKELY TO BE AI-MADE OR 90% LIKELY TO BE AUTHENTIC.

MANNED THE GAP THE PUBLIC HEARS AI CAN BE USED TO FAKE ALMOST ANYTHING.

AND IT DOES I THINK START TO UNDERMINE OUR TRUST.

>> SAM, WHAT IS YOUR TIP?

WHETHER IT'S A SEASONED JOURNALIST OR ONE OF CLAIRE'S STUDENTS, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO SOMEBODY WHO IS TRYING TO VERIFY A FACT?

WHAT ARE THE MOST SIMPLE TOOLS THAT YOU SUGGEST THAT THEY USE AND WHAT'S THE MIND-SET THAT THEY SHOULD APPROACH IT WITH?

>> SO I ALWAYS DESCRIBE THAT WE NEED TO GO BACK TO THINKING ABOUT HOW AI ADDS ON TO THE MEDIA THAT YOU'RE SEEING IN OUR VERIFICATION SKILLS WE'RE SEEING ALREADY.

IT COMPLICATES THAT.

I USE THE ACRONYM WHICH IS SIFT, WHICH IS STOP, DON'T LET YOUR EMOTIONS CARRY YOU AWAY WHEN YOU SEE SOMETHING THAT SEEMS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, THEN I, INVESTIGATE THE SOURCE.

TRY TO FIND OUT WHERE IT COMES FROM.

SEE IF ANYONE ELSE IS COVERING IT, FIND ALTERNATIVE COVERAGES AND SEE IF YOU CAN FIND THE ORIGINAL.

MANY OF THE EXAMPLES WE'RE LOOKING AT, IF WE TRACED BACK THE DEEPFAKES WOULD SEE THEY CAME FROM A SATIRICAL SITE.

IF WE LOOK AT THE TRUMP IMAGES ON A REVERSE SEARCH, THEY HAD NEWS COVERAGE AROUND THEM.

BY DOING THOSE STEPS FIRST, SO WE DON'T HAVE TO ALL DO THE SAME WORK OF TRYING TO BE FORENSIC ANALYSTS, I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL AND IS LEARNING FROM OUR EXISTING GAP, AND IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS WE'VE BEEN CALLING OUT IS A GAP IN ACCESS THE MORE TECHNICAL TOOLS FOR A BROAD RANGE OF JOURNALISTS TO DO THE ANALYSIS AND KNOW HOW TO EXPLAIN TO IT THE PUBLIC.

THAT'S SOMETHING WE'VE GOT TO ADDRESS AS AI TOOLS GET BETTER, AND THAT ALSO REQUIRES PUTTING THE ONUS ON PLATFORMS AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE CREATING THE AI TOOLS TO MAKE IT AS EASY AS POSSIBLE BOTH TO DETECT THE PRESENCE OF AI, TO BE ABLE TO LABEL IT, AND ALSO TO BE ABLE TO AUTHENTICATE THE REAL.

I DON'T WANT TO PLACE PRESSURE ON THE INDIVIDUAL TO BE A FORENSIC ANALYST, BUT WE SHOULD PLACE PRESSURE ON NEWS ORGANIZATIONS TO DO THIS THEMSELVES.

WE NEED TO FIND MUCH BETTER WAYS TO MAKE AI DETECTABLE, EASIER TO LABEL IT WHEN WE SEE IT IN THE TIMELINES OR ENCOUNTER IT IN THE WILD.

AND ALSO MAKE IT EASIER TO AUTHENTICATE THE REAL, TO SHOW WHEN A PARTICULAR THING IS MADE IN A TIME AND PLACE.

IF WE DO THOSE THINGS TOGETHER, WE'LL BE A MUCH MORE RESILIENT PLACE.

>> CLAIRE, WHERE ARE WE IN THAT CONVERSATION WITH THE TECHNOLOGY PLATFORMS AND THE BIG TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES THIS ARE CREATING THESE RULES IN THE FIRST PLACE, WHETHER THEY ARE ABLE TO ADD APPROPRIATE WATERMARKS THAT, YOU KNOW, ARE EASY TO TRACE OR FIND, OR WHETHER, IF YOU'RE GOOGLE, CAN YOU UPDATE THE CHROME BROWSER TO AUTOMATICALLY FLAG THAT THIS IS A SYNTHETIC PIECE OF MEDIA?

>> ABOUT TWO WEEKS AGO, OPEN AI LAUNCHED A NEW TOOL THAT ALLOWS YOU TO WRITE A SENTENCE AND YOU GET A 60-SECOND VIDEO.

THE FIRST I SAW LIKE MANY PEOPLE WERE SCROLLING IN AWE OF WHAT HAD BEEN CREATED.

THE SECOND TEN MINUTES, HOW IS THIS ALLOWED?

IT'S LIKE PUTTING A REALLY FAST CAR THAT CAN DRIVE TWICE AS FAST ON THE INTERSTATE BUT THERE IS NO RULES OF THE ROAD.

I FIND IT ASTONISHING THAT THIS CAN BE ROLLED OUT WITHOUT ANY KIND OF THOSE SAFEGUARDS.

AND WE KNEW THIS WAS COMING.

SO WE CAN'T JUST, YOU KNOW, PUT A WATERMARK ON THAT CAN BE PHOTO SHOPPED OUT.

WE NEED REALLY SIGNIFICANT AND SOPHISTICATED TECHNOLOGY THAT WOULD EMBED THOSE KIND OF MARKINGS.

BUT THE IDEA THAT THEY CAN LAUNCH THESE NEW PRODUCTS WITHOUT THAT IS ASTONISHING.

AND WE DON'T HAVE A REGULATORY FRAMEWORK RIGHT NOW.

IMAGINE A NEW FOOD FOR A NEW CAR, WE'D HAVE TO HAVE THAT.

THESE GUYS ARE CREATING ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

SO I AM CONCERNED THAT IN THIS VERY SHORT TIME PERIOD BEFORE THE ELECTION, THESE NEW TOURS ARE BEING ROLLED OUT AT A PACE THAT IS MUCH FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF WHICH WE AS THE CONSUMERS CAN CATCH UP AND ADAPT.

>> I'M NERVOUS.

I'M WORRIED THAT WE'RE PANICKING, AND OUR PANICKING IS DRIVING HASTY ACTIONS AND A REAL DEGRADATION OF TRUST.

AND IN SOME WAYS, I'M ALSO EXCITED I COME FROM A CONTEXT OF THINKING ABOUT THE CREATIVITY OF VIDEO AND IMAGES.

SO THERE IS POTENTIAL THERE OVERALL, I'M NERVOUS, AND I WANT US TO PREPARE MUCH MORE ACTIVELY, AS CLAIRE SAID, BUT NOT TO PANIC, BECAUSE THAT PLAYS INTO THE HANDS OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO USE THESE TOOLS MALICIOUSLY.

>> CLAIRE WARDLE, THE INFORMATION FUTURES LAB AT BROWN UNIVERSITY, AND SAM GREGORY, THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF WITNESS, THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS VERY MUCH FOR WATCHING, AND GOODBYE FROM "AMANPOUR."