>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": CONGRESSMAN JIM McGOVERN JOINS ME ON THE BIPARTISAN JANUARY 6th COMMISSION PROPOSAL THAT JUST PASSED THE HOUSE, ITS FATE IN THE SENATE, AND WHAT PROMPTED HIM TO SAY THIS ABOUT ITS OPPONENTS IN A HEARING: >> THEY ARE NOT FIT TO SERVE IN THIS CHAMBER.

I'VE HAD IT.

>> Braude: THEN LATER, WILL HE OR WON'T HE?

GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER HASN'T EVEN SAID YET WHETHER HE'LL RUN FOR A THIRD TERM NEXT YEAR, BUT ALREADY COULD HIS OWN PARTY BE HIS BIGGEST OBSTACLE?

PLUS, A LOOK AT THE PRELIMINARY RESULTS OF CHELSEA'S GUARANTEED INCOME PROGRAM, THE BIGGEST IN THE COUNTRY.

CITY MANAGER TOM AMBROSINO AND THE SHAH FAMILY FOUNDATION'S JILL SHAH JOIN ME ON WHY THEY THINK THIS PROVES THE PROGRAM IS A SUCCESS AND SHOULD BE REPLICATED IN OTHER CITIES AND STATES, TOO.

AND, FINALLY, REMEMBERING SOME OF THE MANY WE'VE LOST TO COVID.

♪♪ >> Braude: YOU'D THINK IT WOULD BE A MATTER OF WHICH EVERYONE OF BOTH PARTIES CAN AGREE.

WHAT HAPPENED AT THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6 WAS ABHORRENT, AND CONGRESS SHOULD DO EVERYTHING IT CAN TO INVESTIGATE IT AND TAKE ACTION TO KEEP ANYTHING LIKE THAT FROM EVER HAPPENING AGAIN.

AND SOME REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO COME TOGETHER TO DRAFT A BIPARTISAN PROPOSAL FOR A COMMISSION TO LOOK INTO THE INSURRECTION, WHICH, AT THE TIME OF THIS TAPING, THE HOUSE WAS JUST ABOUT TO PASS.

ALL DEMOCRATS, AND SOME MEMBERS OF THE G.O.P., WERE EXPECTED TO SUPPORT IT.

BUT THERE ARE PROMINENT G.O.P.

HOLDOUTS, INCLUDING MINORITY LEADER KEVIN McCARTHY.

HIS COUNTERPART IN THE SENATE, WHERE AT LEAST 10 REPUBLICANS WILL NEED TO SIGN ON FOR A FILIBUSTER-PROOF MAJORITY, ALSO MOVED INTO THE NO COLUMN, AMAZINGLY -- OR MAYBE NOT -- LESS THAN 12 HOURS AFTER DONALD TRUMP EXPRESSED HIS DISAPPROVAL.

HERE IS McCONNELL: >> AFTER CAREFUL CONSIDERATION, I'VE MADE THE DECISION TO OPPOSE THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS SLANTED AND UNBALANCED PROPOSAL FOR ANOTHER COMMISSION TO STUDY THE EVENTS OF JANUARY 6.

>> Braude: AS FOR WOULD-BE SPEAKER KEVIN McCARTHY?

HE SAID IN A STATEMENT YESTERDAY, "GIVEN THE SPEAKER'S SHORTSIGHTED SCOPE THAT DOES NOT EXAMINE INTER-RELATED FORMS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE IN AMERICA, I CANNOT SUPPORT THIS LEGISLATION."

AND IT'S NOT HIS FIRST FLIP-FLOP ON TRUMP.

HERE HE IS A WEEK AFTER THE DEADLY ASSAULT, THEN THREE MONTHS LATER.

>> THE PRESIDENT BEARS RESPONSIBILITY FOR WEDNESDAY'S ATTACK ON CONGRESS BY THE MOB RIOTERS.

HE SHOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY DENOUNCED THE MOB WHEN HE SAW WHAT WAS UNFOLDING.

THESE FACTS REQUIRE IMMEDIATE ACTION BY PRESIDENT TRUMP TO ACCEPT HIS SHARE OF RESPONSIBILITY.

>> I WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO CONTACT HIM WHEN THE RIOTS STARTED.

HE DIDN'T SEE IT.

BUT HE ENDED THE CALL TELLING ME HE'LL PUT SOMETHING OUT TO MAKE SURE TO STOP THIS.

AND THAT'S WHAT HE DID; HE PUT A VIDEO OUT LATER.

I ENGAGED IN THE IDEA OF MAKING SURE WE COULD STOP WHAT WAS GOING ON INSIDE THE CAPITOL AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME, AND THE PRESIDENT SAID HE WOULD HELP.

>> Braude: I'M JOINED NOW BY THE CHAIR OF THE HOUSE RULES COMMITTEE, CONGRESSMAN JIM McGOVERN.

>> Braude: CONGRESSMAN, IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> Braude: NOW, IT APPEARED THAT KEVIN McCARTHY WAS FOR A BIPARTISAN COMMISSION BEFORE HE WASN'T.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> I THINK DONALD TRUMP GOT TO HIM.

KEVIN McCARTHY IS SPINELESS, HE IS A COWARD.

QUIET FRANKLY, HE IS UNFIT FOR A LEADERSHIP POSITION.

AND I MEAN TO COME OUT AGAINST IT AFTER HE SENT A LETTER -- HE SENT A LETTER TO PELOSI SAYING THESE ARE THE CONDITIONS THAT NEED TO BE MET FOR ME TO SUPPORT A COMMISSION.

AND ALMOST EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE ITEMS HAS BEEN MET.

HE WANTED A 50/50 SPLIT BETWEEN DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS.

HE GOT IT.

HE WANTED EQUAL SUBPOENA POWER.

HE GOT IT.

ALL OF THE THINGS HE REQUESTED, HE RECEIVED.

HE COULDN'T TAKE YES FOR AN ANSWER.

SO, I MEAN, HE IS AFRAID OF DONALD TRUMP.

A LOT OF REPUBLICANS ARE AFRAID OF DONALD TRUMP.

AND THEY'RE GOING TO VOTE AGAINST THIS COMMISSION.

>> Braude: WHEN HE SAYS -- AND I THINK THE THING THEY'VE BEEN HIDING BEHIND THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS, AND SOME OF YOUR COLLEAGUES IN THE HOUSE HAVE BEEN READING SIMILAR REMARKS THAT APPEAR LIKE HOSTAGE VIDEOS, THAT IT IS NOT BROAD ENOUGH.

IT IS TOO NARROWLY FOCUSED ON JANUARY 6th, THE REPUBLICANS SAY -- OR SOME REPUBLICANS SAY, PARTICULAR LEADERS -- IT SHOULD BE BROADENED TO LOOK AT OTHER VIOLENCE THAT WE LIVED THROUGH OVER THE PAST SUMMER.

ARE THEY RIGHT OR ARE THEY WRONG?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS NOTHING THAT LIMITS THE COMMISSION FROM LOOKING AT ANY VIOLENCE THAT MIGHT BE RELATED TO WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6.

SO THEY HAVE WIDE LATITUDE.

BUT WHAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE NOW ASKING FOR IS THAT WE SHOULD INVESTIGATE BLACK LIVES MATTER, THAT WE SHOULD INVESTIGATE ANY ACT OF VIOLENCE THAT HAS OCCURRED, NOT JUST RECENTLY, BUT THEY WANT TO GO BACK YEARS.

WHAT THEY DON'T WANT TO DO IS THEY DON'T WANT TO FACE THE TRUTH.

BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS THAT DONALD TRUMP PUSHED A BIG LIE AND URGED VIOLENCE ON THE CAPITOL.

WE HAD AN INSURRECTION.

PEOPLE DIED.

PEOPLE WERE WOUNDED.

THERE WAS AN ATTACK ON OUR DEMOCRACY.

I WAS THERE THAT DAY.

I WAS THE LAST PERSON OFF THE HOUSE FLOOR.

THEY DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH THE REALITY.

AND IT REALLY IS PATHETIC.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, OCCASIONALLY I SAY TO MYSELF, I CAN UNDERSTAND TAKING A POSITION THAT IS CONTRARY TO, I DON'T KNOW, FACT OR REALITY OR SOMETHING, BUT FLIP-FLOPPING ALMOST OVERNIGHT IS BORDERLINE HUMILIATING.

DOES THIS SURPRISE YOU, EVEN IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, THAT SOMEBODY LIKE KEVIN McCARTHY, AGAIN, WHO HOPES TO BE SPEAKER IN THE BEGINNING OF 2023, CAN DO THIS WITH APPARENTLY NO SHAME?

>> I MEAN, WE ALL -- IT IS SURPRISING ON ONE LEVEL, BUT THEN IT IS NOT.

BECAUSE THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME KEVIN McCARTHY HAS FLIP-FLOPPED BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP TOLD HIM TO FLIP-FLOP.

THIS IS WHY PEOPLE HATE WASHINGTON.

WE -- THERE ARE LOTS OF CALLS ON BOTH SIDES FOR BIPARTISANSHIP.

THIS WAS TRULY BIPARTISAN.

THE DEMOCRAT WHO SHARES THE HOMELAND COMMITTEE AND THE RANKING REPUBLICAN BOTH AGREE THIS IS A GOOD COMPROMISE, THIS IS A GOOD BILL.

EVERYBODY AGREES WITH IT.

AND ALL OF A SUDDEN KEVIN McCARTHY COMES OUT AGAINST IT BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP ISSUES A STATEMENT SAYING I'M WATCHING YOU, KEVIN.

THAT IS WHAT YOU CALL SPINELESS.

COMPARE IT TO LIZ CHENEY WHO HAD THE GUTS TO STAND UP AND SAY I'M NOT GOING TO EMBRACE THE BIG LIE.

THE MINORITY LEADER LACKS CHARACTER.

IT IS REALLY SAD TO WATCH.

AND THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THIS IS ABOUT THE COUNTRY.

I SAID ON THE FLOOR TODAY, EVERY MEMBER OUGHT TO VOTE FOR THIS COMMISSION OUT OF RESPECT FOR THIS INSTITUTION AND OUT OF RESPECT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO WORK HERE.

OUR STAFF MEMBERS WERE TRAUMATIZED.

THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED IN THE CAFETERIA WERE TRAUMATIZED BY WHAT HAPPENED.

WE HAVE SOME MEMBERS WALKING ABOUT SAYING WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th WAS REALLY NOTHING.

THE SAME MEMBERS HAVE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THEM BARRICADING THE DOORS BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID FOR THEIR LIVES.

AND NOW THEY'RE SAYING NOTHING REALLY HAPPENED.

IT WAS JUST A NORMAL DAY OF TOURISM HERE IN D.C. >> Braude: I WAS READING THE "WASHINGTON POST" RIGHT BEFORE YOU JOINED ME, CONGRESSMAN McGOVERN, AND I SAW THAT ONE OF THE NO VOTES WILL BE A GUY BY THE NAME OF PENCE FROM INDIANA.

HE HAS A BROTHER THAT WAS THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

SOME OF THE INSURRECTIONISTS ON JANUARY 6th WERE HOLDING SIGNS SAYING "HANG MIKE PENCE," AND HIS BROTHER IS GOING TO VOTE AGAINST A COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE THE ACTIONS OF THAT DAY.

>> IT IS UNBELIEVABLE BECAUSE, AS YOU POINT OUT, THOSE PROTESTORS WERE HERE NOT JUST TO HARM DEMOCRATS, THEY WANTED TO HANG THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

LOOK, WHAT HAS HAPPENED NOW IS McCARTHY HAS MADE THIS A PARTY-LINE VOTE.

HE IS WHIPPING THIS.

HE IS HAVING HIS WHIP ORGANIZATION SAYING THAT THE LEADERSHIP WANTS YOU TO VOTE NO.

WE'LL FIND OUT HOW MANY PROFILES ENCOURAGE THERE ARE, AND HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN LOCATE THEIR SPINE.

I'VE CAST A LOT OF TOUGH VOTES IN MY LIFE, BUT A COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE AN INSURRECTION THAT IS TOTALLY BIPARTISAN IS NOT A TOUGH VOTE.

THIS IS A NO-BRAINER, AND THE FACT THAT THEY'RE AFRAID TO EVEN VOTE FOR THIS, IT TELLS YOU, YOU KNOW, HOW FAR THEY'VE FALLEN.

>> Braude: ARE REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE GOING TO BE AFRAID TO VOTE FOR THIS?

YOU NEED 10IN ADDITION TO ALL 50 DEMOCRATS.

SEVEN VOTED TO CONVICT THE PRESIDENT IN THE SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL, BUT MITCH McCONNELL HAS DETERMINED A POSITION.

NOW DID THEY GET TO 10?

>> I HOPE THEY DO.

I WAS LISTENING TO THE CLIP YOU PLAYED OF MITCH McCONNELL, WHEN HE TALKED THIS IS A PARTISAN MANEUVER.

I SHOWED YOU THE LETTER THAT KEVIN McCARTHY WROTE THE SPEAKER.

WE MET ALL OF THOSE DEMANDS.

WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT?

THEY GOT EVERYTHING THEY WANTED.

THIS IS AN EQUALLY DIVIDED COMMISSION WITH EQUAL SUBPOENA POWER.

THERE ARE NO POLITICIANS ON THIS PANEL.

THESE ARE GOING TO BE EXPERTS, NOT POLITICIANS.

IF THIS IS NOT BIPARTISAN, AND CONSIDERED BIPARTISAN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL WOULD BE.

>> Braude: JIM McGOVERN, YOU MENTIONED SOME OF THE PEOPLE, MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, THE CONGRESSMAN FROM GEORGIA WHO SAID JANUARY 6 WAS LIKE ANY TOURIST VISIT TO THE CAPITOL, THE OUSTER OF LIZ CHENEY, AND I COULD GO ON AND ON -- HOW DO YOU END THIS CULT OF TRUMP, THIS EMBRACE OF FICTION AND LIES?

HOW DO YOU FIX SOMETHING THAT IS SO THOROUGHLY BROKEN?

>> I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ULTIMATELY HAVE TO FIX IT.

I THOUGHT THE LAST ELECTION WOULD HAVE HELPED FIX IT, WHEN DONALD TRUMP WAS RESPONSIBLE NOT ONLY FOR LOSING THE PRESIDENCY, BUT FOR LOSING THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE FOR REPUBLICANS.

I THOUGHT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A WAKE-UP CALL.

BUT IT MAY TAKE ANOTHER ELECTION.

THAT'S WHY REPUBLICANS ARE WORKING OVER TIME TO PASS VOTER SUPPRESSION LAWS.

BUT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE ENGAGED.

PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE AN INTENSE ABOUT THE MID-TERM ELECTIONS AS THEY WERE ABOUT THE LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION BECAUSE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS NO LONGER A CONSERVATIVE PARTY.

THEY EMBRACE MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE RATHER THAN DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM HER.

THEY SEE THERE IS POLITICAL ADVANTAGE IN DOING THAT.

IT IS SAD TO WATCH.

THIS IS NOT JUST AN ISSUE FOR REPUBLICANS.

THIS IS AN ISSUE FOR OUR COUNTRY.

WHEN A MAJOR PARTY ENGAGES IN EMBRACING CONSPIRACY THEORIES ON A REGULAR BASIS, WHEN THEY CAN'T EVEN BRING THEMSELVES TO VOTE FOR A BIPARTISAN COMMISSION THAT IS TRULY BIPARTISAN, TO LOOK INTO AN INSURRECTION, AN ATTACK ON THIS DEMOCRACY, THIS IS REALLY A SAD DAY.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE ENGAGED AND DEMAND THAT THEY NOT BE REWARDED FOR THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR.

>> Braude: I THINK IT WAS YESTERDAY, 62 REPUBLICANS VOTED -- TALK ABOUT AN EASY VOTE -- 62 REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE VOTED AGAINST A MEASURE ON ITS WAY TO THE PRESIDENT'S DESK CONDEMNING ANTI-ASIAN HATE AND DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXPLANATION FOR THOSE 62, OR NO?

>> LOOK, WE HAVE BIGOTS AND RACISTS WHO ARE IN CONGRESS.

THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE DEFENDING THOSE WHO WALKED AROUND THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th WITH CONFEDERATE FLAGS, WITH T-SHIRTS THAT SAID CAMP AUSCHWITZ -- THIS IS WHO THEY ARE.

WHAT IS REALLY STUNNING TO ME IS THAT THE LEADERSHIP OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE HOUSE -- YOU KNOW, THE ESTABLISHMENT, IF YOU WILL, OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THE HOUSE, CAN'T BRING THEMSELVES TO DISTANCE THEMSELVES AND THEIR PARTY FROM THESE EXTREMISTS.

IT REALLY IS SAD.

>> Braude: CHAIRMAN McGOVERN, BEFORE YOU GO, I WANT TO TOUCH ON THE TOPIC YOU'VE BEEN AN UNRIVALED LEADER ON IN YOUR TIME IN CONGRESS: COMBATING HUNGER IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE KNOW HOW FOOD INSECURITY HAS EXPLODED DURING THE PANDEMIC.

AS SOON AS I SAY GOOD-BYE TO YOU, I'M GOING TO BE JOINED BY THE CITY MANAGER OF CHELSEA, AND THE HEAD OF THE SHAH FAMILY FOUNDATION TO HELP FUND SOMETHING SCALD CALLED "CHELSEA EATS," UP TO $400 A MONTH, COVERING 12% TO 15% OF THE POPULATION.

THAT'S A PRETTY BIG SAMPLE.

>> IT IS.

>> Braude: HARVARD JUST CAME OUT WITH A STUDY AT THE BEGINNING OF MAY, SAYING VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE MONEY WAS SPENT ON NECESSITIES, 75% ON FOOD AND GROCERIES -- IS THAT SOMETHING OF THAT MAGNITUDE THAT MIGHT BE ADDED TO YOUR ARSENAL OF ANTI-HUNGER AGENDA ITEMS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

YES.

AS CHAIRMAN OF THE RULES COMMITTEE, WE DON'T HAVE ANY JURISDICTIONAL BOUNDARIES, SO I DECIDED TO HOLD A SERIES OF HEARINGS OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS HIGHLIGHTING WHAT WORKS IN COMMUNITIES, LISTENING TO PEOPLE WITH LIVED EXPERIENCES, FIGURING OUT WAYS FOR US TO NOT MANAGE HUNGER BUT SOLVE IT.

AND THE ULTIMATE GOAL IS TO GET PRESIDENT BIDEN TO DO A WHITE HOUSE CONGRESS ON FOOD NUTRITION AND HUNGER.

WE HAVEN'T HAD ONE OF THOSE IN 52 YEARS.

WE'RE BUNLDING A VOLUME OF INFORMATION FOR THE WHITE HOUSE.

BUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN CHELSEA IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS WE'LL BE LOOKING AT, AND I EXPECT WE'LL CALL THEM TO TESTIFY AT ONE OF OUR HEARINGS.

>> Braude: BEFORE YOU GO, IN THE LAST 45 SECONDS, IT SEEMS TO ME -- I DON'T KNOW IF THEY THINK THIS, IN PART, IT IS MODELED, EVEN IF NOT INTENTIONALLY, ON THIS CHILD TAX CREDIT THAT YOU GUYS IN THE HOUSE CHAMPIONED AS THE JOE BIDEN THAT LIFTS MORE THAN HALF OF THE KIDS IN THIS COUNTRY OUT OF POVERTY WITH DIRECT PAYMENTS TO ALMOST 90% OF AMERICAN FAMILIES WITH KIDS, NO?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT IS.

AND I THINK IT IS A MODEL THAT, YOU KNOW, I CERTAINLY SUPPORT.

BUT WE NEED TO AMPLIFY IT.

THERE ARE GOOD THINGS HAPPENING IN COMMUNITIES ALL ACROSS THIS COUNTRY AND IN CITIES AND TOWNS THAT HAVE BEEN EXPERIMENTING WITH DIFFERENT APPROACHES THAT HAVE HAD GOOD RESULTS.

WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS SEE WHETHER THEY CAN BE APPLICABLE NATIONWIDE.

CAN WE DO THIS, YOU KNOW, ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY?

LOOK, WE HAVE 45 MILLION AMERICANS WHO ARE HUNGRY, WHO DON'T KNOW WHERE THEIR NEXT MEAL IS GOING TO COME FROM.

WE LIVE IN THE RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

AND WE SHOULD ALL BE ASHAMED OF THAT.

WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IN THE RULES COMMITTEE IS TO KIND OF ELEVATE THE ISSUE, CREATE A SENSE OF URGENCY, AND GET THE WHITE HOUSE BECAUSE WE NEED WHITE HOUSE LEADERSHIP ON THIS TO BASICALLY STEER THEIR SHIP TO A COMPREHENSIVE, HOLISTIC SOLUTION TO END HUNGER ONCE AND FOR ALL.

>> Braude: JIM McGOVERN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK AND TIME.

BE WELL.

>> ALL THE BEST.

THANK YOU.

>>> AS LIFE IN MASSACHUSETTS FINALLY GETS BACK TO NORMAL, GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER CONTINUES TO GET HIGH MARKS FROM MASSACHUSETTS VOTERS.

ONE RECENT POLL PUT HIS APPROVAL RATING AT 67%, WITH 71% BACKING HIS HANDLING OF COVID.

YOU MIGHT THINK THE MASSACHUSETTS G.O.P.

WOULD BE CELEBRATING THOSE NUMBERS, WHICH SUGGESTS BAKER WILL BE TOUGH TO BEAT IF HE SEEKS A THIRD TEAM.

INSTEAD, IF BAKER DOES RUN FOR RE-ELECTION, HIS OWN PARTY MIGHT BE HIS BIGGEST HURDLE.

ADAM REILLY HAS MORE.

>> Reporter: SCROLL THROUGH THE MASS G.O.P.

'S Facebook PAGE, AND YOU'LL SEE FLORIDA GOVERNOR RON DeSANTIS PRAISED FOR SAYING SYSTEMIC RACISM DOESN'T EXIST.

SOUTH DAKOTA GOVERNOR KRISTI NOEM, CHEERED FOR LIMITING TRANSGENDER KIDS' ACCESS TO SPORTS.

AND MASSACHUSETTS' GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER PANNED FOR OVERREACHING ON COVID.

SOCIAL MEDIA ISN'T REAL LIFE, BUT IT REFLECTS AND SHAPES IT, AND REPUBLICAN STATE COMMITTEE WOMAN AMY CARNEVALE SAYS ANTIPATHY TOWARD BAKER IS SUBSTANTIAL.

>>> A GOOD-SIZE SEGMENT OF THE REPUBLICAN BASE WANTS TO SEE CHANGE.

>> Reporter: THIS DYNAMIC ISN'T NEW.

BACK IN 2008, 36% OF REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS BACKED SCOTT LIVELY, AN EXTREME ANTI-GAY PASTOR, IN WHAT WAS WIDELY SEEN AS A PROTEST VOTE.

BUT, LATELY, BAKER HAS STOKED FRUSTRATION ON THE RIGHT WITH HIS COVID RESPONSE AND CRITICISMS OF DONALD TRUMP.

>> HIS REMARKS DURING AND AFTER THE TRAVESTY OF THE ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL WERE DISGRACEFUL.

>> Reporter: AMY CARNEVALE IS BOTH A TRUMP BACKER AND A BAKER SUPPORTER.

SHE SAYS HIS CRITICS SEEM TO FORGET THEY LIVE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

>> TO GET ELECTED AS A REPUBLICAN IN A BLUE STATE, YOU HAVE TO APPEAL TO INDEPENDENTS, THOSE UNENROLLED VOTED, AND EVEN SOME DEMOCRATS.

>> Reporter: IF THAT'S THE GOAL, MASS INC. POLLING GROUP PRESIDENT STEVE KOCZELA SAYS BAKER'S CREDENTIALS ARE IMPECCABLE.

>> AMONG DEMOCRATS, BAKER'S OFTEN BEEN IN THE HIGH 70s OR EVEN IN THE 80s.

>> Reporter: BUT IN TODAY'S G.O.P., THAT MAY NOT BE A BADGE OF HONOR.

A POTENTIAL PRIMARY CHALLENGE ALREADY LOOMS FROM GEOFF DIEHL, THE FORMER STATE REP AND U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE.

HE'S CRISS-CROSSING MASSACHUSETTS FOR A YouTube SERIES TITLED "BAY STATE WITH A BRONCO," WHICH FEELS A LOT LIKE THE SOFT LAUNCH OF A CAMPAIGN.

[MUSIC] >> MASSACHUSETTS IS A GREAT STATE!

>> Reporter: IN ONE EPISODE, DIEHL CHATS WITH MASS G.O.P.

CHAIR JIM LYONS, WHO PRAISES DIEHL'S 2016 FIGHT TO STOP AUTOMATIC GAS TAX HIKES.

>> YOU DROVE THAT MESSAGE ALL ACROSS THE STATE.

AND THAT'S THE KIND OF OF GRASSROOTS EFFORT WE HAVE TO BUILD ON.

>> Reporter: IN A CONTEST WITH DIEHL, BAKER WOULD BE FAVORED.

MASS INC.'S LATEST POLL STILL PUTS HIS REPUBLICAN APPROVAL AT 62%.

A BIGGER RISK?

THE NEW RULES FOR THE NEXT YEAR'S G.O.P.

CONVENTION.

RIGHT NOW SUPPORT FROM 15% OF DELEGATES GETS CANDIDATES ON THE BALLOT.

BUT IF THE STATE PARTY BOOSTS THAT, SAY, TO 40%, BAKER MIGHT NOT MAKE THE CUT.

IT'S THAT HYPOTHETICAL THAT GETS FORMER MASS G.O.P.

CHAIR JENNIFER NASSOUR NERVOUS.

>> BEFORE THEY VOTE ANYTHING THAT WILL SHATTER THE PARTY, BUT ALSO DEMOCRACY IN MASSACHUSETTS, I'M HOPING THEY THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

>> Reporter: SHE IS ALSO A BAKER BACKER, WITH A DIM VIEW OF DIEHL'S PROSPECTS.

>> IF YOU CANNOT WIN FOR STATE SENATE, AND IF YOU CANNOT WIN STATEWIDE OFFICE RUNNING FOR U.S. SENATE, THEN THE CHANCE THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY WIN IN A GENERAL ELECTION FOR GOVERNOR IS PRETTY SLIM TO NONE.

>> Reporter: LYONS, THE CURRENT MASS G.O.P.

CHAIR, DECLINED TO COMMENT, AFTER NOTING THERE ARE NO DECLARED CANDIDATES AND THAT PARTY BYLAWS PROHIBIT HIS INVOLVEMENT IN PRIMARIES.

IF YOU READ THE TEA LEAVES, THOUGH, HIS PREFERENCES MAY ALREADY BE CLEAR.

ADAM REILLY, GBH NEWS.

>> Braude: LOOMING IN THE BACKGROUND OF THIS DEBATE ABOUT THE DIRECTION OF THE G.O.P.?

HOW DONALD TRUMP AND TRUMPISM PLAY IN MASSACHUSETTS.

IN 2016, HILLARY CLINTON GOT 60% OF THE VOTE, COMPARED TO TRUMP'S 33%.

FOUR YEARS LATER, JOE BIDEN DID EVEN BETTER, GETTING MORE THAN TWO VOTES FOR EVERY ONE THAT TRUMP GOT.

>>> NEXT UP, IT'S BEEN SIX MONTHS SINCE THE CITY OF CHELSEA LAUNCHED A GUARANTEED INCOME PILOT PROGRAM, GIVING 2,000 LOW-INCOME RESIDENTS AND FAMILIES DEBIT CARDS WITH UP TO $400 A MONTH, IN AN EFFORT TO ADDRESS A GROWING HUNGER CRISIS FUELED BY THE PANDEMIC.

IT'S CALLED "CHELSEA EATS," AND A HARVARD STUDY OF THE PRELIMINARY DATA FOUND THAT, SO FAR, IT'S ACHIEVING ITS GOALS.

THE PROGRAM, WHICH WAS INITIALLY EXPECTED TO END THIS MONTH, WILL CONTINUE AT LEAST INTO JUNE.

I'M JOINED NOW BY TWO OF THE PEOPLE BEHIND IT: CHELSEA CITY MANAGER TOM AMBROSINO AND JILL SHAH, THE PRESIDENT OF THE SHAH FAMILY FOUND, WHICH PARTNERED WITH THE CITY ON "CHELSEA EATS," AND DONATED A MILLION DOLLARS TO THE PROGRAM.

SHE'S ALSO THE HOST OF THE PODCAST "CATALYST FOR CHANGE."

>> Braude: TOM AND JILL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> Braude: TOM, HOW DID THIS COME ABOUT?

>> SO, REALLY, IT WAS BORN OUT OF NECESSITY.

WE WERE PROVIDING FOOD AT THE HEIGHT OF THE PANDEMIC LAST SPRING AND IN THE SUMMER.

AND WE WERE USING A LOT OF CITY RESOURCES TO DO IT.

AND IT WAS BECOMING UNSUSTAINABLE.

WE WERE ALSO SPENDING A LOT OF MONEY ON NON-FOOD ITEMS, LIKE TRUCKING AND PACKAGING AND TEMPORARY EMPLOYEES, AND WE WERE REALIZING THAT IT WAS AN UNDIGNIFIED WAY FOR PEOPLE TO GET FOOD.

I WAS LOOKING OUT MY WINDOW WHILE PEOPLE WERE STANDING IN LONG LINES, FOR AN HOUR OR MORE, IN THE HOT SUN, AND THEN BEING HANDED A HEAVY BOX OF FOOD.

AND FOR MANY OF OUR RESIDENT WHO DON'T HAVE CARS, THEY WERE THEN PUTTING THAT ON THEIR SHOULDERS AND THEN WALKING A FEW BLOCKS HOME.

SO WE THOUGHT THERE HAD TO BE A BETTER WAY TO DO THIS.

AND WORKING WITH THE SHAH FAMILY FOUNDATION, WE CAME UP THIS IDEA OF LET'S JUST GIVE PEOPLE A DEBIT CARD AND MAKE THIS MUCH SIMPLER.

>> Braude: JILL, YOUR FAMILY MADE A MAJOR INVESTMENT.

LITERALLY, WHY DID YOU BUY IN?

>> ONE, IT WAS THE MIDDLE OF THE PANDEMIC, AND PEOPLE WERE REALLY SUFFERING IN THE CITY OF CHELSEA, SO WE WANTED TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THE WORK THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN STARTED.

WE THOUGHT IT WAS A BRILLIANT IDEA TO MOVE TO GIVING FOLKS CASH DIRECTLY.

AND WE SAW IT ALWAYS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO TEST SOMETHING THAT MORE AND MORE IS GETTING DEBATED IN WASHINGTON, IN TERMS OF A WAY TO REALLY HELP PEOPLE RISE OUT OF POVERTY.

>> Braude: WHY IS GIVING MONEY TO PEOPLE DIRECTLY, WHICH OBVIOUSLY IS THE THEORY BEHIND THE UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME, GUARANTEED INCOME, WHY IS IT A PREFERRED ROUTE, JILL?

>> TOM JUST TALKED ABOUT THE TRUCKING, THE PACKAGING, ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS THAT HAVE TO HAPPEN IN ORDER TO GET FOOD TO PEOPLE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, IT IS NOT THE MOST PREFERRED FOOD.

AND IN OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES, PEOPLE MAYBE NEED TO PAY THEIR RENT INSTEAD OF OF NEEDING A CAN OF BEANS.

SO GIVING PEOPLE CASH DIRECTLY, ONE, IT IS MUCH MORE DIGNIFIED AND LET'S PEOPLE MAKE CHOICES.

AND IT TAKES AWAY ALL OF THE EXPENSIVE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT NEEDS TO BE IN PLACE TO DO OTHER THINGS.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, THINKING OF CHOICES, TOM, CRITICS OF PROGRAMS LIKE THIS THROUGH THE YEARS, WHETHER IT WAS WELFARE DURING RONALD REAGAN OR IT WAS GUARANTEED INCOME HERE, THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM OF THE OPPONENTS ARE ALL OF THE CHOICES ARE GOING TO BE BAD.

PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BUY LOTTERY TICKETS AND LIQUOR.

WELL, HARVARD LOOKED AT THE HARD DATA, AND THE RESULTS ARE ANYTHING BUT THAT.

WHAT DID THEY CONCLUDE?

>> I THINK THE CONCLUSION WAS THAT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY WAS ON NECESSITIES.

AND MOSTLY IT WAS ON FOOD, BUT ALSO OTHER THINGS, LIKE UTILITY BILLS AND OTHER ESSENTIALS FOR PEOPLE.

AS JILL SAID, WE JUST SEE THIS AS A VERY DIGNIFIED WAY FOR PEOPLE TO MEET THEIR NEEDS.

>> Braude: JILL, WHAT STOOD OUT FROM THE PRELIMINARY DATA FROM HARVARD TO YOU?

>> I THINK IT WAS TWO THINGS.

ONE, IT SHOWED WHAT WE THOUGHT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN, THAT PEOPLE PRIMARILY SPENT MONEY ON FOOD.

AND, MORE IMPORTANTLY, THEY SPENT IT ON OTHER INCIDENTALS AND TRANSPORTATION TO GET TO WORK AND TO SCHOOL.

AND ALMOST NONE WAS SPENT ON ALCOHOL AND CIGARETTES, WHICH IS OFTEN A BIG PUSHBACK.

BUT EVEN AS -- WELL, AS IMPORTANT, IT WAS SPENT LOCALLY.

SO IT WAS PUTTING MONEY INTO AN ECONOMY THAT WAS SEVERELY BROKEN BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC.

>> Braude: I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT THIS EXCEPT TO SAY IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO SPEND A FEW BUCKS ON ALCOHOL OR FUN TO PROVIDE A LITTLE SOMETHING IN THEIR LIFE, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT.

TOM, YOU WERE QUOTED IN THE GLOBE I THINK IN OCTOBER, AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS THING, YOU WANTED TO STAY AWAY FROM THE TERM "UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME," BECAUSE IT WAS POLITICALLY CHARGED AND TOO DIVISIVE.

AFTER A SUCCESSFUL ROUND, DO YOU STILL FEEL THE SAME WAY?

>>> PERSONALLY, I'M IN FULL SUPPORT OF UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME.

I WAS TRYING TO AVOID ANY POLITICAL BATTLE TO GET THIS PROGRAM OFF THE GROUND.

I THOUGHT IT WAS MORE EFFECTIVE TO PRESENT IT AS AN AMERICAN EFFORT.

ONE GOOD THING IS THAT THE STUDY HAS SHOWN THAT THESE PROGRAMS WORK.

IT IMPROVES NOT JUST THE ECONOMIC HEALTH, BUT THE MENTAL HEALTH AS WELL.

>> Braude: THAT IS HUGELY IMPORTANT.

I'M GLAD YOU SAID THAT.

TOM'S JOB, JILL, IS TO FOCUS EXCLUSIVELY ON THE PEOPLE OF CHELSEA, AND OBVIOUSLY YOU'VE BEEN A BIG HELP IN THAT.

BUT YOU ALSO BELIEVE THAT THIS SHOULD BE REPLICATED BEYOND THE BORDERS OF CHELSEA.

I'M SURE YOU KNOW YESTERDAY THE L.A. BOARD OF SUPERVISORS VOTED 4-1 TO IMPLEMENT A COMPARABLE PROGRAM OUT THERE.

I JUST ENDED AN INTERVIEW WITH JIM McGOVERN, WHO SAYS HE IS GOING TO HOLD A RULES COMMITTEE HEARING WHERE HE EXPECTS TO INVITE YOU TWO BECAUSE HE WANTS TO COME UP WITH A COMPREHENSIVE, BROADER APPROACH TO END HUNGER AND THINKS THIS COULD BE A GOOD ELEMENT OF THIS.

THERE WAS AN ARTICLE IN THE GLOBE THAT SAID IT WOULD BE A BILLION ENTERPRISE, AN EXPANSION OF THE EARNED INCOME TAX CREDIT, WHICH IS A WILDLY POPULAR PROVISION IN THE TAX CODE, BOTH FEDERAL AND STATE.

IS THAT REALISTIC, A BILLION DOLLAR INVESTMENT HERE?

>> I THINK SO.

I THINK WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE REAL NUMBERS ARE.

OF COURSE IT DOES.

LOOK AT HOW MUCH MONEY IS BEING SPENT RIGHT NOW TO SUPPORT PEOPLE WHO ARE VULNERABLE IN OUR COUNTRY.

SO PART OF THIS IS ABOUT THINKING ABOUT THE BEST AND MOST COST-EFFECTIVE WAY TO SPEND THAT MONEY.

AND THE OTHER IS TO THINK ABOUT ALL OF THE THINGS THAT IT AFFECTS, WHERE WE SPEND LESS MONEY BECAUSE WE SPEND MONEY DIRECTLY WITH PEOPLE AND TRUST THEM.

THIS IS REALLY A DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW DO WE FEEL ABOUT ONE ANOTHER?

AND DO WE TRUST EACH OTHER TO DO WHAT WE WOULD DO?

AND I THINK IT IS INTERESTING, RIGHT, THE FACTS ARE THAT WE ALL SPEND MONEY THE SAME WAY, AND THAT WE CAN TRUST ONE ANOTHER.

AND THERE IS A NET POSITIVE OPPORTUNITY HERE FOR THE COUNTRY IF WE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS.

>> Braude: I LOVE THE TRUST AND DIGNITY WERE PART OF THIS CONVERSATION.

TOM AND JILL, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE PROJECT.

CONTINUED GOOD LUCK.

AND WE WILL STAY IN TOUCH.

THANK YOU BOTH.

>> THANK YOU, JIM.

>> Braude: AND, FINALLY TONIGHT, REMEMBERING SOME OF THE MANY WE'VE LOST TO THE CORONAVIRUS THIS YEAR, WITH THE HELP OF THE "FACES OF COVID" TWITTER ACCOUNT.

LIKE 60-YEAR-OLD DR. SANTO BUCCHERI OF WETHERSFIELD, CONNECTICUT, WHOSE FAMILY SAID, "HE REVELED IN GOOD TIMES, LIKE AT THE MIDNIGHT PREMIERES OF "STAR WARS" FILMS.

HE LOVED BLACK TEA AND STASHED CADBURY CHOCOLATE BARS ANYWHERE HE COULD HIDE THEM."

56-YEAR-OLD KERRI UNSWORTH OF NORTH PROVIDENCE, RHODE ISLAND.

HER DAUGHTER SAID SHE WAS A HEALTH CARE WORKER WHO WAS "DOING WHAT SHE'D WANTED TO DO, AND WANTED TO HELP.

SHE KNEW THE RISKS AS WELL."

AND 63-YEAR-OLD PAULA ALCALA OF WORCESTER SHE WAS DESCRIBED AS "VERY ADVENTUROUS" AND "ENJOYED SPENDING TIME WITH HER GRANDCHILDREN."

SHE "LOVED THE OCEAN, LOVED HER SPANISH MUSIC AND DRINKING A FEW CHELITAS WITH HER FRIENDS."

IF YOU LOST SOMEONE YOU LOVE TO THE PANDEMIC AND WOULD LIKE TO SHARE THEIR STORY, PLEASE VISIT Twitter.com/faces of Covid.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org