>>> NEXT, WE TURN THE CLOCKS BACK TO AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY TO SOMEONE MANY KNOW AS AMERICA'S FIRST DIPLOMAT, BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.

A NEW APPLE TV SERIES "FRANKLIN" TELLS THE STORY OF HIS MISSION TO FRANCE IN 1776 TO SECURE SUPPORT FOR AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE.

ACADEMY AWARD WINNER MICHAEL DOUGLAS SPEAKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT TAKING ON THE ROLE OF THIS FOUNDING FATHER.

>> MICHAEL DOUGLAS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> HI, WALTER.

NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> YOU PLAY BENJAMIN FRANKLIN IN FRANCE BASED ON STACEY SHIFT'S BOOK, THE GREAT UMPROVISATION FOR THIS LIMITED SERIES.

AND STACEY SHIFT BEGINS THE BOOK BY SAYING IN DECEMBER 1776 A SMALL BOAT DELIVERED AN OLD MAN TO FRANCE, AND THERE'S THAT SCENE WHERE HE'S MOBBED AS HE'S GOING INTO PARIS.

WHY IS HE SO FAMOUS?

>> DURING THE HOMEWORK FOR THIS SHOW, IT WAS STUNNING WHAT THIS MAN HAD ACCOMPLISHED IN HIS LIFE.

WE KNOW ABOUT HIM AS A WRITER AND AS A PRINTER AND AS A PUBLISHER.

THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA, LIBRARIES, POST OFFICE, AND THEN ALL OF THE INVENTIONS.

AND I THINK PROBABLY IT WAS ELECTRICITY AND THE FACT ELECTRICITY WAS FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD JUST WAS SOMETHING SO UNBELIEVABLE, IT WAS FROM OUTER SPACE, THAT MADE HIM SO FAMOUS.

>> DO THEY MEAN TO ATTACK US?

>> THEY MEAN TO SEE ME.

THEY HAVE IT IN THEIR HEADS I INVENTED ELECTRICITY.

WHO AM I TO DISSUADE THEM?

>> AND IN FRANCE IS WHERE THEY ACTUALLY PERFORM FOR THE FIRST TIME HIS ELECTRICITY EXPERIMENTS ON THE LIGHTEN ROD, SO THEY CONSIDER HIM SOMEBODY WHO SNATCHED FIRE FROM THE HEAVENS, SO IT MUST HAVE BEEN FUN TO DO IT.

WHY WOULD YOU DO A PERIOD PIECE?

I DON'T THINK YOU'VE EVER DONE ONE BEFORE.

>> NO, I'VE NEVER DONE A PERIOD PIECE, WHICH WAS ONE OF THE BASIC REASONS WHY I WANTED TO DO IT.

THE LAST YEARS IN MY CAREER I'VE BEEN TRYING DIFFERENT THINGS, COMEDY OR GREEN SCREEN.

BUT, YOU KNOW, BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WAS LIKE, WOW, SO I DIDN'T LEARN MUCH MORE THAN WHAT I REMEMBERED FROM MY HIGH SCHOOL CLASS.

AND THIS WHOLE CHAPTER, WHICH I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT AND THOUGHT WAS SO FASCINATING.

WHICH WAS AFTER 70 YEARS OLD AND ALL HE'S ACCOMPLISHED AND FINISHING UP HIS WORK ON THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE IN JULY -- FINISHED SIGNING JULY 4, 1776, AND SEVEN WEEKS LATER TOGETHER THEY DECIDED THEY'VE GOT TO SEND FRANKLIN TO FRANCE BECAUSE THE COUNTRY WAS BROKE.

THEY'RE STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WAR WITH THE BRITISH.

YOU KNOW, THEIR ARMY IS RAGTAG.

THEY HAVE NO WEAPONS, NO SHIPS, AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

SO THEY SEND FRANKLIN TO FRANCE TO GET THEIR SUPPORT.

I MEAN I FOUND IT SO IRONIC THAT THIS NEW DEMOCRACY WOULD TAKE ONE OF THE BIGGEST MONARCHIES IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD TO SUPPORT THEM.

AND THAT'S THE ONE QUESTION I'M GOING TO HAVE FOR YOU.

HOW DID HE EVEN IMAGINE HE WAS GOING TO SUCCEED?

AND AS STACEY'S BOOK TITLE SAYS "THE GREAT IMPROVISATION," BUT ALL HE'S ACHIEVE HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO.

SO HE TOOK HIS GRANDSON WHO HE SORT OF NURTURED WITH HIM TO TEMPLE.

AND SIX WEEKS AFTER THE DECLARATION HE'S TAKING A TWO-MONTH TRIP ACROSS THE SEA TO FRANCE TO TRY TO WOO THE FRENCH TO SUPPORT THE AMERICANS IN THIS -- IN THIS NEW VENTURE.

>> WELL, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ONE REASON HE SUCCEEDS IS BECAUSE HE PRINTS THINGS.

HE BECOMES A PROPAGANDIST ALMOST, AND HIS GRANDSON, TEMPLE, IS HELPING HIM WITH THE PRINTING PRESS AS THEY PRINT THE GREAT DOCUMENTS COMING OUT OF AMERICA.

>> NOT BAD BUT SWIFT WITH THE LEVER.

IMPRESSION MUST BE EVEN.

WATCH.

>> I CAN PRINT 500 PAGES A DAY, BUT DON'T WORRY, BOY, I'VE GOT OTHER PLANS FOR YOU.

>> I MIGHT HAVE PLANS OF MY OWN, YOU KNOW?

>> SUCH AS?

>> NEVER MIND.

>> NO.

I'M ALL EARS.

>> WELL, I INTEND TO LIVE PLEASANTLY, TO HAVE AND ENTERTAIN FRIENDS AND HAVE ADVENTURES, TO RESIDE IN A HOUSE LIKE THIS, AND BE REGARDED WITH WIT AND AS A GENTLEMAN.

>> PERHAPS IT IS BEST FOR YOU TO LEARN TRADE AFTER ALL.

>> TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT RELATION WITH TEMPLE THAT I LOVE.

>> TEMPLE WAS SORT OF A BASTARD.

HE DIDN'T KNOW WHO HIS MOTHER WAS, HE WAS GROWING UP WITH ANY SUPPORT IN THE U.K.

IN ENGLAND.

AND BECAUSE OF HIS OWN CONFLICT WITH HIS SON WILLIAM WHO WAS GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY AND BASICALLY ALLOWED HIS SON TO BE IMPRISONED AS A LOYALIST, I THINK THAT PROBABLY THERE'S SOME GUILT IN BEN.

HE TOOK THIS YOUNG MAN OVER, WHICH TO BE WITH HIM -- WITH ALL THE STRENGTHS THAT FRANKLIN HAD, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN CALL HIM A REALLY GOOD FAMILY MAN PER SE.

CERTAINLY I WOULD NOT HAVE WANTED TO BE MARRIED TO HIM.

BUT HE TOOK HIM OVER AND ALLOWED US IN THE 8 HOURS TO DO ANOTHER SORT OF SUBPLOT OF A YOUNG GENERATION, OF A YOUNG PERSON THAT HASN'T TRAVELED BEING INTRODUCED AND INTEGRATED INTO THIS KIND OF WILD, FRENCH SOCIETY, ALLOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE INVOLVED.

SO IT BECAME A GOOD PARALLEL TO WHAT WAS GOING ON.

>> NOAH DUPE PLAYS TEMP, AND I LOVE THOSE SCENES BECAUSE YOU WATCH HIM TRYING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT FRENCH SOCIETY, IN SOME WAYS A METAPHOR FOR THE WHOLE THING IS US TRYING TO FIGURE OUT EUROPEAN SOCIETY THEN.

>> IT WAS.

AND I THINK THE EXCITING PART WE HAD WAS NOT KNOWING WHO WAS ON YOUR SIDE.

OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A TREMENDOUS NUMBER OF SPIES THAT EXISTED ALL AROUND, A LOT OF BACK STABBING.

AND I THINK THAT FRANKLIN FRUSTRATED CERTAINLY JOHN ADAMS AND A COUPLE OF OTHER PEOPLE FOR THE AMOUNT OF TIME IT WAS TAKING HIM AS WASHINGTON WAS STRUGGLING WITH HIS ARMY TO KEEP OUR IDEA OF DEMOCRACY ALIVE.

>> GEORGE WASHINGTON SAID THE GAME IS PRETTY MUCH UP.

THAT'S IN STACEY SCHIFF'S BOOK WHEN FRANKLIN GOES OVER THERE.

AND HE HAS TO DO SOMETHING WE'RE NOT VERY GOOD AT TODAY, WHICH IS SHOW BOTH IDEALISM AND REALISM, THIS SORT OF BALANCE OF POWER GAME.

SO HE'S VERY DEXTEROUS IN HOW HE PULLS THEM IN.

HOW DO YOU TRY TO CONVEY THAT WILINESS OF BENJAMIN FRANKLIN?

>> WELL, HOPEFULLY WITH A LOOK HERE OR A LOOK THERE OR PEOPLE KNOWING HOW HE ACTUALLY FEELS ABOUT PEOPLE AND HOW HE TREATS THEM.

I MEAN HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH -- IS EXTRAORDINARY.

I MEAN HE BROUGHT HIM IN LIKE THEY MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE BROTHERS.

>> YEAH, THE FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

>> YEAH, THE FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER, WHO WAS REALLY HIS POINT MAN IN TERMS OF DEALING WITH THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT AND WAS SO SUPPORTIVE OF FRANKLIN, YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH MONEY THEY WEREIBLE TO GET.

THE OTHER THING THAT, YOU KNOW, REALLY STRUCK HOME WHEN WE SPEAK ABOUT HIM BEING 70 WHEN HE FIRST ARRIVES IN 1800 THE AVERAGE AGE FOR AN AMERICAN WAS 39 YEARS OLD.

SO FRANKLIN WAS ALREADY 70.

I SAY HE MADE JOE BIDEN LOOK REALLY GOOD IN MY OPINION.

I MEAN FOR HIM TO TAKE ON ALL THIS AT THAT AGE AND WITH THE GOUT WAS VERY IMPRESSIVE.

AND I THINK JUST THE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE AND HIS ABILITY TO READ PEOPLE, JUST TO KIND OF GET A SENSE OF WHO THEY ARE.

AND HIS WILLINGNESS TO SEEM VERY ACCESSIBLE.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WERE NOT THREATENED BY HIM.

HE MAY BE FAMOUS AND A FAMOUS STAR, BUT HE BROUGHT EVERYBODY IN AND IT WAS HIS KIND OF VULNERABILITY.

I THINK IT WAS A GREAT PERFORMANCE.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S NECESSARILY WHO HE WAS, BUT IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST AMAZING EFFORTS I COULD EVER BELIEVE THAT WHY THIS MONARCHY ENDS UP SUPPORTING A DEMOCRACY.

AND I MUST SAY -- YOU KNOW THIS BETTER THAN ME -- IT WASN'T SOON AFTER THIS.

I DON'T KNOW IF HE TOTALLY BANKROLLED THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT, IT'S NOT A FEW YEARS LATER WHEN WE HAVE THE FRENCH REVOLUTION.

IT'S ANOTHER AREA WHERE HE PLAYED A KEY PART I THINK.

>> AND FRANKLIN WHEN HE ARRIVES HE DOESN'T WEAR A WIG.

SHE SOMETIMES WEARS A FUR CAP AS IF HE'S A BACK WOODSMAN.

AND YOU PORTRAY HIM VERY WELL AS IF HE'S HAVING A COMMON TOUCH BUT ALSO PRETENDING TO HAVE A COMMON TOUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR GETTING THAT, WALTER.

YEAH, I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT BECAUSE THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS REALLY FASCINATED ABOUT WHERE HE WAS WITH HIS PRESENCE.

HE KNEW HE WAS SORT OF A ROCK STAR, SO WHAT DID HE DO IS HE PLAYED HUMILITY.

AND ESPECIALLY I THOUGHT IT WORKED OUT SO WELL.

ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT PRODUCTION-WISE THAT I LOVE ABOUT THE PICTURE IS THE EXTRAS.

I MEAN WE'RE HAVING 4, 500 EXTRAS OF THE COURT ALL IN FULL WIGS AND UNBELIEVABLE COSTUMES.

AND IT REALLY -- IT REALLY HELPED GIVE SOME MILLITUDE AND MADE HIM LOOK LIKE PLAYING A SIMPLE MAN.

I'M CURIOUS TO ASK YOU, TOO, YOU REALLY COULD SAY FRANKLIN WAS SORT OF THE BEGINNING OF THE MIDDLE CLASS.

YOU KNOW, HE REPRESENTS A WORKING CLASS THAT COULD ACTUALLY FUNCTION AND MAKE MONEY RATHER THAN ROYALTY OR POVERTY.

AND THE CAP WAS SORT OF PICKED UP BY DANIEL BOOM AND I GUESS DAVY CROCKET BUT WAS TO A SIMPLER TIME AND THE RUSTIC FUTURE AMERICA HELD.

>> THE OPENING HAS A THEME IN WHICH STATE CRAFT, DIPOLICEMENACY IS ACTUALLY STAGECRAFT.

AND THERE'S BEEN FRANKLIN NOT ONLY BEING A DIPLOMAT BUT PLAYING A ROLE, SETTING A STAGE.

>> TELL ME WHAT SORT OF MAN IS THE FOREIGN MINISTER.

>> WHAT SORT?

>> YEAH.

>> YOU SEE WHERE WE ARE.

HERE ONE NIGHT YOU MIGHT PLAY THE LOVER, THE NEXT A KING, AFTER THAT A BEGGAR.

BUT WHO ARE YOU REALLY?

>> YOU ARE WHAT THE RULE REQUIRES YOU TO BE.

>> WE UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER PERFECTLY.

>> I THINK YOU START IN THE BEGINNING AND YOU GET A SENSE OF THE CROWDS WHEN HE ARRIVES IN PARIS AND HIS NOTORIETY, AND HE CREATES THIS HUMBLE -- THIS HUMBLE BEING.

AND THEN HE HAD SUCH GREAT WIT AND A SENSE OF HUMOR AND A KIND OF IDIOSYNCRASIES OF THE SITUATION HE WAS IN.

I ADMIRE HE SEEMS TUESDAY BE A MAGICIAN WHERE HE BALANCES BOTH SIDE.

HE'S KIND OF EVALUATING SITUATIONS.

AND I THINK THIS SERVES HIM VERY WELL.

AS A MAN -- YOU KNOW, AS GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA FOR ENGLAND YOU HAD SOME IDEAS OF HOW TO HANDLE HIMSELF, BUT IT WAS REALLY FASCINATING TO WATCH HIM WIND HIS WAY THROUGH THE ARISTOCRACY UP THROUGH THE GOVERNMENT.

>> IN THE BOOK IT SAYS GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT BE A SIEGE, IT SHOULD BE A SEDUCTION.

YOU SEE IN THE SERIES HOW HE DOES THAT.

AND EVEN METAPHORICALLY HE HAS TWO OF HIS I GUESS WE COULD SAY MISTRESSES.

TELL ME ABOUT THEM.

[ SPEAKING GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> WELL, I THINK -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL I HAVE TO SAY, WALTER, THAT -- AND I APPRECIATED STACEY'S BOOK.

I'VE GOT A LOT OF INFORMATION OUT OF YOUR BIOGRAPHY ON FRANKLIN, A LOT OF PERSONAL, YOU KNOW, CHARACTER STUFF.

AND CONGRATULATIONS, IT WAS A GREAT JOB.

HE -- HE HAD AN EYE FOR THE WOMEN.

HE -- HE JUST LOVED WOMEN.

EVEN AT 70 YEARS OLD WHEN HE WAS OVER THERE, SO I DON'T SAY EVERYTHING WAS SEXUALLY RELATED, BUT HE LOVED TO SWEET TALK TO WOMEN.

MADAM WAS MARRIED AND HAD A MORE ETHEREAL PRESENCE.

HELVIV WAS A LITTLE MORE CARNAL I THINK.

BUT I WOULD IMAGINE JUST WITH THE KIND OF PRESSURE HE WAS UNDER THIS WAS HIS WAY OF RELAXINGP HE SORT OF LIKED TO EMBIBE, WE KNOW THAT, TOO.

BUT HE LOVED THE LADIES AND HE ENJOYED -- HE KNEW HOW TO SPEAK TO THEM, WAS VERY, VERY FRIENDLY.

IT WASN'T A QUESTION OF GOING ANYWHERE.

>> IT KIND OF PALLED JOHN ADAMS AND JOHN ADAMS' WIFE, ABIGAIL, BECAUSE THEY'RE IN PARIS AS WELL.

BUT THERE'S QUITE A CONTRAST BETWEEN THEM.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT FRANKLIN'S CHARACTER, HOW THAT HELPED THEM.

THE FRENCH HAD NO REASON TO GET ON OUR SIDE DURING THE REVOLUTION.

HE ALMOST SEDUCED THE MAN.

>> HE DID.

AND THIS WAS THE QUESTION IN THE BEGINNING, TOO, THE HARDEST THING TO UNDERSTAND.

JOHN ADAMS SORT OF GAVE ME THE PARALLELS TO SOME THINGS GOING ON TODAY.

AND I WAS THINKING AS THEY WERE KNOCKING THEIR HEADS, YOU KNOW, WORKING OUT THIS DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, AND YOU REALLY FELT LIKE TWO SIDES THAT WERE GOING ON, ALMOST LIKE TWO DIFFERENT PARTIES.

AND IDENTIFY REALIZE, THOUGH, HOW ALL THEIR FOCUS AND CONCENTRATION WAS ON THIS FORM OF GOVERNMENT, CREATING A DEMOCRACY.

AND WORKING ON THE SHOW MADE ME REALLY APPRECIATE HOW VULNERABLE, HOW FRAGILE THIS SENSE OF DEMOCRACY WAS.

AND WHEN YOU SAW THE TWO OF THEM GOING AT EACH OTHER, YOU ALWAYS KNEW IT WAS FOR THE BETTER.

IT WAS TO CREATE THIS STATE.

AND TODAY YOU FEEL LIKE MUCH MORE PEOPLE GOING AT EACH OTHER TRYING TO KILL EACH OTHER RATHER THAN WORK TOWARDS A BETTER DEMOCRACY.

BECAUSE IT'S AN IMPERFECT SOLUTION.

I MEAN IT'S NOT AN ANSWER TO IT.

IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE EVOLVING.

>> WAS THIS FEELING ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND YOUR WORRY ABOUT DEMOCRACY NOW, IS THAT ONE OF THE REASONS YOU WANTED TO DO THIS?

IS IT SORT OF TIED INTO TODAY?

>> NOT ACTUALLY, THOUGH.

IT HAPPENED AS IT EVOLVED AND I WAS WORKING ON IT I SAW THOSE COMPARISONS.

THE SITUATION BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE REMIND ME OF ENGLAND AND THIS NEW COUNTRY, AMERICA.

THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS.

SO IT'S IMPORTANT AS WE'RE COMING INTO OUR 250th ANNIVERSARY AT A TIME WHEN I'M MORE AWARE THE FRAGILITY OF WHAT WE HAVE.

AUTOCRACIES SEEM TO BE BUDDING UP ALL OVER THE WORLD.

DEMOCRACIES ARE AN ENDANGERED PROCESS, AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT HELPS HOPEFULLY -- AS A SIDE NOTE WE'LL MAKE PEOPLE AWARE OF.

>> MICHAEL DOUGLAS, THANK YOU.