♪♪

>> Funding for the "Long Island

Business Report" has been

provided by

The Rauch Foundation.

>> Hello, and thanks for joining

us.

I'm Jim Paymar with the

"Long Island Business Report."

You know, Long Island, as most

of you know, has some of the

highest utility rates in the

country, and the bill just keeps

going up.

Natural gas and oil-powered

plants on the island and buying

power from outside the region is

a costly proposition.

But Long Island may be on the

verge of turning that around

with a push toward renewable

energy.

The Island already has a booming

solar energy industry, and wind

energy is now on the front

burner.

The Long Island Power Authority

recently approved the nation's

largest offshore wind farm to

be located between the eastern

tip of the island and

Martha's Vineyard in

Massachusetts.

As part of our ongoing series

of reports "Peril & Promise:

The Challenge of Climate

Change," we're discussing

renewable energy.

How will the wind power impact

business and consumers on the

island?

Here to discuss the wind project

are Adrienne Esposito, executive

director of Citizens Campaign

for the Environment, and

Clint Plummer, VP of development

at Deepwater Wind.

Adrienne and Clint, thank you so

much for being with us.

>> Thank you for having us.

>> Thanks, Jim.

>> This is a big deal, Clint.

This is the first time.

This is the biggest wind farm...

>> Biggest in the country.

>> ...in the United States of

America to come online.

I know you're about, what, five

years out in actually getting

power generated.

But tell me how much power and

where this is going to be

located and how it operates.

>> Yeah, well, thanks, Jim.

We're delighted to be here.

And we're really excited about

this project, which we're

calling the South Fork

Wind Farm.

This is a 90-megawatt offshore

wind farm that's located about

30 miles east of Montauk.

And the unique thing about this

is, it's designed to plug in and

deliver power right where it's

needed, right into the heart of

the South Fork in downtown

East Hampton.

And that project, once it starts

operating in 2022, will provide

enough power for 50,000 homes.

That's enough to fully power the

entire town of East Hampton.

So the great thing about this is

that we're going to not only

deliver clean power there, but

we're going to be able to save

people money on their

electricity rates.

>> Adrienne, any concerns from

the environmental point of view?

Are you totally behind this

project?

>> We are, in fact, behind this

project.

And the reason for that is that

this was a classic example of

either they had to build a new

power plant, which would've been

a fossil fuel power plant, or go

in a new direction, a better

direction, which is a clean

renewable project.

And we're thrilled to say that

LIPA, also with some leadership

from Governor Cuomo, chose the

renewable project.

That is at the proverbial fork

in the road.

>> Yeah.

>> We just took the right fork.

>> And apparently, we cannot see

these windmills.

They're far enough out to sea

where --

>> Well, only if you're

Superman.

I mean, they are 30 miles

offshore.

>> That's a long way.

>> Yeah, not even somebody in

their prime of life can see

them.

>> Maybe with binoculars.

Yeah, so that's not a problem,

because I know people have

fought that before.

They say it'll be an eyesore if

you put these big blades out

there.

But that's not an issue here?

>> It's not an issue here.

Some people are concerned about

the viewshed impact for other

proposals.

But we personally think they are

more like kinetic art, so we

like them.

But this is not an issue for

this project.

>> Clint, how did this thing all

come together?

I mean, these are not easy

things to do.

I mean, you've got federal land,

you've got states that are

involved, you've got governors

that are involved, and a lot of

financing.

Tell me how it all came

together.

>> Yeah, well, in this case,

this is really the leadership of

Governor Cuomo pushing the clean

energy economy forward.

The state needed new sources of

energy in downtown East Hampton.

You know, the Hamptons are a

part of the island that's

growing very rapidly.

Electricity demand is growing

faster than anywhere else on

Long Island.

And so the Long Island

Power Authority issued a

competitive solicitation to buy

new sources of power.

We own a lease from the federal

government that's in that area,

30 miles east of Montauk, that

allows us to build offshore

wind.

And we thought that we had the

opportunity there to compete

head-to-head with new fossil

fired plants and offer a better,

cheaper, cleaner resource.

And Long Island Power Authority

found that our project was able

to deliver power cheaper than

building a new fossil fired

power plant.

>> Tell me about the logistics.

How deep are these, you know?

You got pilings that go way

deep in the ocean.

You got to hold them down,

obviously, to spin those massive

blades.

How far are we talking?

>> That's the best thing about

the U.S. East Coast.

We think of it as the sweet spot

for developing offshore wind

anywhere in the world, because

we've got the coalescence of

three major factors.

One, we've got the best wind

resource anywhere in the world.

The weather nerds call this the

Saudi Arabia of wind.

[ Laughter ]

We've got a vast coastal plain

that's now submerged that's

extending for about 200 miles

offshore.

So the water's relatively

shallow -- It's only about

100 feet, 120 feet deep where

we're building this project.

And then, of course, there's a

lot of demand.

And so we can cost-effectively

build these large projects,

where they're 30 miles offshore,

over the horizon -- people

aren't going to have to look at

them -- and deliver power right

to where it's needed without any

of the controversy or the cost

of building new conventional

resources.

>> Now, there are some

environmental concerns that I've

read about.

Fishermen think that maybe

putting these large structures

into the seabed will harm the

fishing industry.

There's also concern about birds

flying into these blades and

being killed and other

environmental concerns.

What's your view?

>> Well, here's our view -- all

large-scale energy

infrastructure will have some

impact on the environment.

It's our responsibility as

environmentalists to choose the

ones with the least impact on

the environment, and that's

wind.

You know, birds are more

susceptible to being killed from

burning of fossil fuels.

Let's look at the one oil spill

in the Gulf of Mexico.

>> Horrible.

>> 80,000 birds, 6,000 turtles,

25,600 marine mammals, but yet

to date, we've never heard of

one wind spill.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> So, you know, there are

different reasons that birdlife

are impacted from fossil fuels,

climate change, fuel spills, the

exploration of those industries.

Turbines are the least impacting

to all wildlife.

And I do want to say something

about the fishing industry.

The greatest threat to our

fishing industry is two

things -- one is climate change,

including acidification of our

ocean waters and our estuaries,

and the other's overfishing.

The acidification and the

climate change is brought on by

fossil fuels.

So the stakeholders that will

benefit the most from

transitioning from fossil fuels

to wind will be our fishermen

and our fisherwomen, and we want

to help them recover their

industry and their jobs.

>> Well, that's a good thing.

>> Yes, that's an excellent

thing.

>> Long Island's got a deep

history when it comes to --

>> It's a maritime culture on

Long Island.

It's something that we identify

with and we hold dear and want

to retain.

>> And if I can weigh in on

that.

I think there's a couple

interesting things there.

Number one, we're absolutely

convinced that offshore wind and

the commercial fishing community

can co-exist and thrive

together.

Before we built this project,

the South Fork Wind Farm, we

built the first offshore

wind farm in the U.S. off the

coast of Rhode Island.

It's called the Block Island

Wind Farm, and it just started

operating at the end of last

year.

Through that, we had an

excellent experience in working

with the commercial fishing

community.

And just this past year, when we

did surveys, we found that those

foundations for the offshore

wind turbines are now covered in

about an inch and a half of

marine life.

They're becoming artificial

reefs.

>> Really? That's interesting.

>> And the head of the

Rhode Island CRMC, their coastal

resources agency, went on record

and said that this is becoming

an area where we're seeing

different fish stocks grow up

around each one of these

turbines.

So the recreational fishing

community, when you go out there

during the summer months to our

Block Island Wind Farm, you'll

find all kinds of fishing boats

around those turbines, because

that's where the small critters

are and that's where the big

critters are, too.

>> Well, that's where I'll go,

'cause I can never find a fish.

But what about the noise?

I mean, you know, these

things --

[ Imitates whooshing ]

>> Yeah.

>> Isn't there a lot of noise?

>> There's not a lot of noise.

Noise is vibration, and

vibration in any kind of big

machine is a bad thing, so we

worked very hard to design that

to not be material at all.

And we actually do studies

around this.

>> Uh-huh.

>> These projects have to go

through a very rigorous vetting

process where we have to look at

everything from impacts on birds

to impacts on marine life.

Our Block Island project, we had

to get 26 different federal,

state, and local approvals.

So this project will have

certainly no less than that.

And we're going to study all of

that in detail.

>> So, I'd say there were a few

legal bills involved in this

process.

[ Laughter ]

>> There were a few of those.

>> Adrienne, there are other

possibilities for wind

generation around Long Island,

but not necessarily coming from

New York State.

Can you tell me a little bit

about this Invenergy project?

>> Yeah, there's some creative

ideas.

One proposal called Invenergy

has proposed three different

states with three different

renewable energy projects that

would then transport through

transmission systems the

renewables onto Long Island.

And, you know, we think the

jury's out on that.

We'd like to look at that in

more depth, and I'll tell you

why.

We want to create green jobs

around green energy on

Long Island.

So whether it's jobs building

the offshore wind farm, jobs for

our local solar men and women

who work in the solar industry

for battery storage, we want a

green economy, which means green

energy and green jobs.

If we have places in other

states, the jobs are not here in

New York.

So we'd like to figure out how

we can have renewable projects

here.

>> Couldn't the governor or

couldn't the state say to

Invenergy, "Look, we're all for

buying your power, but only if

we can build the facilities, the

structure, the components of the

windmill"?

>> Sure.

The state can say that, and,

you know, Clint can talk about

the efforts that are underway

right now to build or to create

some of these industries right

here in New York.

And, you know, we got a lot

of great, smart people in

New York, and they want to work.

These industries create good

engineering jobs, good plumbing

jobs, good electrician jobs,

good jobs that people can make a

living at, and that's important

to us, too.

>> Well, where else can we build

in New York?

>> Well, for instance, there's a

huge lease that was just

auctioned off, off of the

South Shore of Long Island in

New York City.

It's almost 80,000 acres of

bottomlands.

And so that is another huge

area that will allow us to build

offshore wind jobs for

New Yorkers, but also energy for

New York, so we can transition

from antiquated, dirty fossil

fuels to the clean, safe,

renewable wind power.

>> And how is the new Trump

administration going to figure

and factor into all of this?

Because they seem to be going

back in the direction of oil and

gas and nuclear generation.

>> Yes, they are.

It's only been a couple of

weeks.

We've heard a lot of discussion

about that.

And what we're hoping, and what

we're going to work towards, is

that we don't go back to the

1970s or the '80s.

We need to go forward.

Wind power's been advancing.

Wind power in Europe, for

instance, offshore wind alone,

11,000 megawatts of offshore

wind in Europe.

>> Translate that.

>> Well, let me compare it to

America, which is 30.

>> Uh-huh.

>> So we have 30 megawatts in

America, 11,000 megawatts in

Europe.

They have all types of job

markets and an economy around

it, and we're building ours.

So we want to keep advancing our

renewable energy economy and not

send us backwards to the 1970s.

>> And there's one other

important element to this, which

is cost-effectiveness, because

at the end of the day, we all

care about how much money we

keep in our pocket.

And the big advantage of

renewables today is that they're

cheaper than building new

conventional resources.

>> And as we look across

Downstate New York, New York

City and Long Island, we've got

some of the oldest, most

antiquated power infrastructure

anywhere in the country.

At some point, they're going

to have to build new power

plants.

We see the South Fork Wind Farm

as the tip of the spear.

This is the first case in which

an offshore wind farm has been

able to compete head-to-head and

win to build power for one

specific area.

So as we look at the

opportunity here, we see a

couple of major drivers.

There's a need to build new

power plants in Long Island.

We can compete head-to-head and

win and deliver power

cost-effectively there.

In addition to that,

Governor Cuomo set a goal of

transitioning the state to

50% clean energy by 2030.

>> Is that realistic?

>> That is absolutely realistic

with today's technology, and

it's going to help save people

money over the long term,

because we will selectively use

renewable technology to displace

the need to spend on other

things, like new fossil fired

power plants.

So we're going to stabilize

rates today and bring them down

over the long term.

>> Okay, but, you know, that

seems to be a pretty heady goal.

50% by 2030.

>> By 2030.

>> 50% by 2030.

That's a lot of energy to

produce.

I mean, how many megawatts is

your project, again?

>> It's 90 megawatts.

>> 90 megawatts.

So how would that translate

into, you know, how much -- how

many wind farms would you have

to build to replace what we have

now?

>> Yeah, so you need a lot.

But we've got a lot of

resources.

So New York State today is

already in excess of

20% renewable energy, so we're

not going from zero to 50%.d

We're just bridging the gap.

In addition to that, we've

got lots of resources all across

the state.

Offshore wind is one part of

that.

So is rooftop solar.

So is large-scale solar.

So is wind in Upstate New York.

Offshore wind just happens to be

unique because it's the best

resource for Downstate.

It's the best resource for

Long Island, and it's one that

cannot only save money and clean

up the environment, but it's

also got an opportunity to help

bring a new local industry here.

>> And can I just say, Jim?

You know, a lofty goal is a

good goal.

>> I'm not saying it's not.

I'm just saying, how do you

achieve it, though?

>> Well, I think when, you know,

we were given as America the

lofty goal of --

>> This governor is already

working to achieve it, though.

Governor Cuomo put out a goal to

build 2,400 megawatts of

offshore wind by 2030.

In achieving that goal, which is

completely achievable, with the

existing leases that are out

there today, we've got the

ability to serve that goal.

So there's a lot of capacity

there, and we can build it

cost-effectively to help achieve

the goal and bring down rates.

>> And let me just finish,

though, that, you know, we can

go to the moon.

We can send a probe to Mars.

Surely we could figure out how

to advance renewable energy.

I don't actually see it as a

lofty goal.

I see it as the next step in our

evolution of how we generate

energy and electricity in

New York and America.

>> Well, let me ask you this,

since we do have a new

administration in Washington

and we have a governor in

New York who's very positive

about renewables.

Does the industry, does solar

and wind, still need some kind

of subsidy or tax break in order

to break even?

>> Yeah, let me just take your

question head-on, as it relates

to the state versus the federal

government.

Renewable energy is much more

about what goes on at the state

level.

So when the governor puts out

this goal of getting us to

50% clean energy, that's all we

need.

So if we've got the clarity that

there's going to be a customer

there for us, we're able to

deliver these projects

cost-effectively without

subsidies.

>> So we don't need to have

government involvement?

This totally comes from private

enterprise and it's not

publicly financed?

>> So, Deepwater has taken zero

public funds.

We built the first offshore wind

farm in the U.S. entirely with

private funds.

We intend to do exactly the same

thing here.

>> Okay.

Let's turn for a minute, if we

can, to solar, because you

brought that up earlier.

And what are we doing in terms

of solar?

I see a lot of rooftops in the

neighborhoods that have solar

generation panels on top of the

roofs.

>> Yeah, solar is really

advancing in leaps and bounds

with the technology and its

energy output.

Solar combined with battery

backup storage is going to be a

critical piece of the puzzle for

us to move into that 50% realm

in New York State.

And we're seeing that now.

The battery storage is really

advanced in its technology.

The technology has gone up, the

price has come down.

We see rooftop solar,

particularly on Long Island.

You know, it wasn't that long

ago when we had very, very few

homes with solar on their roof.

Now it's in every neighborhood.

Over 10,000 homes on Long Island

now have rooftop solar.

It's growing in leaps and

bounds because it's also

cost-effective.

Unfortunately, we have some of

the highest rates in the nation,

but that has been also a reason

where solar has really propelled

into the forefront.

>> But hasn't solar been

subsidized?

Don't you get some kind of tax

credit for putting solar on

your roof?

>> Yes.

>> And isn't that going away?

>> Yes.

Yes to both your questions.

It has been subsidized.

There has been tax credits.

There has been some breaks from

LIPA, once you put it on your

roof.

That has been going down slowly.

Every year, it gets smaller and

smaller.

But the market has pretty much

maintained its consistency.

And that was the goal, was to

get a fledgling industry on its

feet, up and running, so it can

stand on its strength and run on

its own.

And we think that's a good

thing.

But, you know, we should be

very mindful that, you know, as

we're talking about potential

tax breaks for solar or for

wind, the fossil fuel industry

still gets numerous tax breaks

from our federal government.

So there still is not an even

playing field yet.

>> Clint, Deepwater Wind, are

you involved in solar?

>> We are.

So, we are developing a number

of solar projects across

New England.

We've got several projects out

there right now that are moving

towards permitting and

construction.

We're excited about the solar

industry, but we have to

recognize that these

technologies have their own

place.

So Long Island, we think that

the best approach is to develop

offshore wind, because it's an

island.

We've got limited amounts of

land.

It's very costly to build

anything on Long Island.

We can build offshore wind where

it's not controversial.

We'll put it over the horizon,

where people don't have to look

at it.

>> What about, you know, when

you fly over Long Island, you

see, you know, just mile after

mile of flat factory structures

and apartment buildings.

I mean, can't we put solar on

those kinds of buildings?

Is that financially viable?

>> Yeah, there's a lot of

rooftop solar out there today.

And it's a great technology, and

it's absolutely something that

we should do more of.

The issue is, solar takes a lot

of land.

If you were going to try to get

the same amount of energy from

solar that our South Fork

Wind Farm will produce,

you'd need 1,500 acres paved

solid with solar panels.

>> Well, what about the tops of

these factories?

>> Let me answer it a little bit

differently.

We need both.

We don't see, as an

environmental organization, that

there should be a competition

between solar and wind.

We see it as a partnership.

They both need to grow together.

So yeah, you're exactly right.

We have so many rooftops that

should have solar.

Some of them are too old and

they're not structurally sound

for it, but as we build new or

we do reconstruction, solar

should be part of the building

plan.

You know, we have a huge

development proposal of

Heartland going up, or might go

up, in the middle of

Suffolk County.

>> Right.

>> Where's the solar?

So we have to continue to

push in these newer developments

or in redevelopment of areas.

We have malls, we have

Home Depots, we have Costcos --

all of which could and should

have solar on the roof.

>> Okay, and what about smaller

wind turbines?

What are they called?

Vertical access wind power.

Smaller units -- they can go on

top of apartment buildings?

>> There's a lot of great

technology out there today, and

it's all coming of age right

now.

Our focus is on using

commercially proven technology

that's got the ability to make

large impacts.

We see those types of

technologies as being things

that will help in the future.

They're not quite there today.

>> Okay, and so how long before

we actually generate power from

this wind farm?

>> We'll be operational in 2022.

>> 2022.

And when will you actually start

installing the mechanisms?

>> We've got a couple years of

engineering and permitting

ahead of us, but we should be in

construction by 2020.

>> And how many units, again,

are going in the ground?

>> It's going to be 15 machines.

>> 15 machines.

And each one of those machines

creates how much energy?

>> It's rated at 6 megawatts,

so collectively, the whole plant

will produce enough power for

50,000 homes.

>> Okay.

And 50,000 homes, this is

basically going to serve just

the Hamptons, though, correct?

>> This is going to plug in

right in downtown East Hampton.

It's going to create enough

power for all of East Hampton.

>> So all the big, you know,

parties that go on in the

summer, they won't have to worry

about the juice going down.

>> And the entire fishing

community and the entire

year-round population of

East Hampton.

>> Adrienne, one thing I'm kind

of interested in -- you know, we

generate mountains and mountains

of waste...

>> We sure do.

>> ...on Long Island.

In fact, what did -- some of the

largest hills we have here,

they're called garbage

mountains.

>> Yes.

>> But we're shipping it out of

state now and barging it out of

state.

We do have some generation of

waste into power.

How significant is that?

>> Yes.

Well, actually, we do have

waste-to-energy plants, or

incinerators, on Long Island.

And believe it or not, those

facilities generate 6% of the

total electric needs across

Long Island.

So they are playing somewhat of

a meaningful role in adding to

the electric grid.

>> Right.

>> You know, one thing we like

to say is garbage is plentiful

on Long Island.

>> [ Laughs ]

>> But while garbage is

plentiful, we don't really count

it as renewable.

So it is an important component.

We think it's good that it's

there and contributing to the

grid.

And we're happy with it.

>> But, I mean, isn't it also

very costly to ship it out of

state to other facilities?

>> Well, half of Long Island is

shipping it out of state and

half of Long Island is sending

it to those incinerators to burn

it.

Once it goes to the

incinerators, and then they have

to dispose of the ash, that's

going back to the Babylon and

the Brookhaven landfill.

>> Oh, I see.

>> So there is a, you know,

garbage cycle.

But your point is well-taken.

Long Island is heading towards a

solid waste management crisis,

'cause it's very expensive to

ship it off Long Island.

So are we going to incinerate

more or are we going to ship it

off?

This is a big open question.

It has not been tackled.

>> I mean, is that ash toxic?

Because if it's not, what

difference does it make if it

goes into a landfill versus

garbage, which disintegrates and

creates toxicity?

>> Well, the ash itself goes to

a contained landfill.

It's not supposed to be out, you

know, in the natural

environment.

>> Right. I understand.

>> So the problem is that, you

know, we burn it because we

don't have room left in the

landfill.

The Brookhaven landfill,

which is the largest landfill

left on Long Island, has about

9 or 10 years left of its

life for capacity.

We have a smaller landfill in

Babylon, and that's it.

All the other landfills have

been closed.

So, you know, we're an island.

We're going to run out of room

for our own garbage.

>> So we need to either

incinerate or the more costly

method is to ship it to some

other state.

>> We need to recycle more.

We're going to need to

continue using our incinerators,

and there will be a lot of

shipping that occurs by rail and

by truck.

>> Okay, and, Adrienne, take out

your crystal ball in terms of --

Well, both of you, actually.

Where are we -- and we only got

about a minute left -- in terms

of wind energy and the

percentage that it will produce

for New York going forward?

Long Island, in particular.

>> We think that there is a

growing market for offshore wind

energy, and the reason I believe

that is the public has grown in

their understanding and their

acceptance of it.

And no true change happens

without the public sentiment

behind that change.

>> And, Clint?

>> It's going to be a huge

industry in Long Island.

We've got the first project

moving forward right now.

We'll be operational in 2022.

And to meet the governor's

goals, we need to build

2,400 megawatts of offshore

wind.

This is just the tip of the

spear.

>> Okay.

Well, listen, I hope it all

comes to fruition.

It sounds like a great idea.

>> It's an exciting time.

>> Get the fossil fuels out of

our environment and burn

something that's clean and

cheaper.

>> Right.

>> 'Cause my power bills keep

going up.

Adrienne, Clint, thank you so

much for being with us.

>> Thank you.

>> And that wraps up our

conversation about wind energy

on Long Island.

For more on the "Long Island

Business Report," log on to our

website.

You can also find us on Facebook

and join the conversation on

Twitter.

I'm Jim Paymar.

Thank you for joining us for

this edition on the

"Long Island Business Report,"

and we'll see you next time.

>> Funding for the "Long Island

Business Report" has been

provided by

The Rauch Foundation.

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